Switch to full style
Lähetä vastaus

What's the difference between Savonian and Karelian genes?

19 Loka 2014 19:25

Until this year, my grandfather would have sworn he was a typical Southern Ostrobothnian.
Art was born in Isokyro as well as his parents, grandparents ad nauseum.
Then I started to check his markers more carefully. His ancestors were Savonian. FTDNA # 99533.

First I know there are marker differences between Karelians and Savonians but weren't the Savo people part of the natural population drift from Ladoga?
Is Ladoga one of the birthplaces of Finnish N1c1?

I'd love to read about all these people but sadly, I'm not finding much online or in the library. Any and all suggestions welcomed!

Re: What's the difference between Savonian and Karelian gene

19 Loka 2014 20:52

Jennifer kirjoitti:Until this year, my grandfather would have sworn he was a typical Southern Ostrobothnian.
Art was born in Isokyro as well as his parents, grandparents ad nauseum.
Then I started to check his markers more carefully. His ancestors were Savonian. FTDNA # 99533.

First I know there are marker differences between Karelians and Savonians but weren't the Savo people part of the natural population drift from Ladoga?
Is Ladoga one of the birthplaces of Finnish N1c1?

I'd love to read about all these people but sadly, I'm not finding much online or in the library. Any and all suggestions welcomed!

Your grandfather is indeed a "Savonian" N1c1, however the label is somewhat misleading. According to Semargl these guys have been found almost everywhere in Finland, also in Osthrobothnia, i.e. not just in historical Savo, marked with a square:

Kuva

Besides, "finnish" N1c1 is based on two main lineages, which were split thousands of years ago. "Western " N1c1, based on SNP VL29, is shared with fex Balts, not even speaking a Uralic language. "Eastern" N1c1 based on SNP Z1936 (including N1c1 Savonian) is fex shared with Hungarians, though with not so many of them. It is kind of ironic that they, despite the very limited number of N1c1's that have been found in Hungary, do however speak a Uralic language.

I know that Jaska, a well known N1c1 wizard and the founder of the site, has been updating his Savonian N1c1 tree. Maybe he's willing to give a comment in regard to your grandfather's position in the tree?

Re: What's the difference between Savonian and Karelian gene

20 Loka 2014 19:54

Thank you! It's ironic that the small corner of Ohio where I grew up was populated by Finns and Hungarians.

If I understand correctly, the split was between Finns and Hungarians eons ago, and again around Lake
Ladoga where the N1c1 tribes went to Savo or Karelia? All the markers on the map theoretically began their journeys in the borderland between Russia and Finland?

My own mtDNA (and my grandmother Jenny's) is H1b1 fully sequenced. She and I have an exact match in Ilmajoki, and others in Sweden and Norway. It makes me wonder if the ancestral mother traveled much the same route as the N1c1 men.

Thanks for the reply, I'm enjoying reading the entire site

Re: What's the difference between Savonian and Karelian gene

21 Loka 2014 10:34

Jennifer kirjoitti:If I understand correctly, the split was between Finns and Hungarians eons ago, and again around Lake Ladoga where the N1c1 tribes went to Savo or Karelia?

Yes, the Eastern Finnish Z1936->Z1935 etc. lineage and the Hungarian Z1936->Z1934 lineage were split long time ago, possibly somewhere near Volga-Kama region, if not somewhere further east. See here:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/N% ... 20Project/

However, the local Savonian and Carelian Z1936 lineages are also rather old and I'm personally somewhat suspicious regarding N1c1 Savonian being really "Savonian" or just rather Pan-Finnish, based on Seima Turbino immigrants of coming into almost whole Finland in the Bronze Age, speaking Proto Saami.

N1c1 Carelians were sort of following them, maybe speaking Proto - and Para Saami and probably even more "ancient" forms of West Uralic, such as Chudic and Merya.

Western N1c1 VL29 probably then came from Estonia and Latvia, speaking a West Uralic Finnic language with a strong Baltic substratum, some time in the Roman Iron Age.

This is however just a personal view, nothing else.

Re: What's the difference between Savonian and Karelian gene

21 Loka 2014 20:35

Interesting! And a question.
If N1c1 men entered Finland, the only entrance had to be near Lake Ladoga? Is this correct? Even from your pinned map, there seems to be a demographic flow from that part if Russia into Suomi.

But the Seima Turbino migration still funn to consider.

What will the new Savo tree be able to tell us?

Thank you!
Lähetä vastaus