Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yenisei

Alkuperää koskeva uutisointi ja uudet tutkimukset.

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja merimaa » 30 Heinä 2025 22:12

Jaska kirjoitti:Jossain muussa ketjussa sivuttiin äskettäin tundrajukagiirien mallintamista. Siihen liittyen havainto Zengin taulukoista: sen heidän parhaan mallinnuksensa (98,4 % Jakutia + 1,6 % Srubnaja) P-arvo on 1,05 potenssiin -37! Se on siis käsittämättömän heikko, mutta heidän näytteillään ei parempiakaan löytynyt. Eli luultavasti todellinen sekoitus on jotain aivan muuta.

Oheismateriaalin kuvan S79 alla lukee näköjään pienellä präntillä, että kaikille väestöille ei löytynyt mallia, jonka p-arvo olisi suurempi kuin 0,01 (Figure S79: qpAdm results for Admixed Inner Asian populations). PDT_Armataz_01_14
merimaa
Lipevä lappilainen
Lipevä lappilainen
 
Viestit: 439
Liittynyt: 17 Marras 2022 19:14

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kristiina » 31 Heinä 2025 20:23

Tuosta Srubnasta tulee mieleen tämä Pianobor-tutkimus. Jukagiirien mallinnus Yakutia + Srubna-kaavalla voisi varmaan vastata sitä, että itäisen ugrilaisen kielen puhujat, jotka ovat kra001:n + middleDon_LBA:n sekoitus, ovat yhteydessä jukagiireihin. Monien mielestä jukagiiristä voi kai erottaa uralilaisia lainasanoja. Mahdollinen kontaktialue on tietenkin kysymysmerkki. Ehkä jukagiiriä on puhuttu lännempänä ja uralilaiset kielet ovat työntäneet sitä idemmäksi.

Olisihan kra001 voinut itse olla jukagiirin puhuja. Minun mielestäni jukagiiri olisi hyvä ehdokas ymjahtahin kieleksi.
Kristiina
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 1459
Liittynyt: 18 Maalis 2015 12:24

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Jaska » 01 Elo 2025 03:41

Kristiina kirjoitti:Olisihan kra001 voinut itse olla jukagiirin puhuja. Minun mielestäni jukagiiri olisi hyvä ehdokas ymjahtahin kieleksi.


Uralilaiskontaktit vetävät jukagiirin alkukotia Lenan ja Jenisein vedenjakajan lähistölle, kun kerrostumia näyttää edelleen olevan useampia (Aikio 2014), joten jukagiiriäkään ei voi pitää Jakutian alkuperäisenä kielenä. Suurin osa Siperian muinaiskielistähän on kadonnut indoeurooppalaisen, uralilaisen, turkkilaisen ja tunguusilaisen ekspansion alle, luultavasti myös Jakutian myöhäiskivikauden kielet. Eskimo-aleuttilainen kielikunta tosin lienee myös mahdollisuuksien rajoissa.
~ "Per aspera ad hominem - vaikeuksien kautta henkilökohtaisuuksiin" ~

Y-DNA: N1c1-YP1143 (Olavi Häkkinen 1620 Kuhmo? >> Juhani Häkkinen 1816 Eno)
mtDNA: H5a1e (Elina Mäkilä 1757 Kittilä >> Riitta Sassali 1843 Sodankylä)
Avatar
Jaska
Ylihärmiö
Ylihärmiö
 
Viestit: 10156
Liittynyt: 14 Helmi 2011 04:02

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kinaporin kalifi » 01 Elo 2025 09:24

Kristiina kirjoitti:Tuosta Srubnasta tulee mieleen tämä Pianobor-tutkimus. Jukagiirien mallinnus Yakutia + Srubna-kaavalla voisi varmaan vastata sitä, että itäisen ugrilaisen kielen puhujat, jotka ovat kra001:n + middleDon_LBA:n sekoitus, ovat yhteydessä jukagiireihin. Monien mielestä jukagiiristä voi kai erottaa uralilaisia lainasanoja. Mahdollinen kontaktialue on tietenkin kysymysmerkki. Ehkä jukagiiriä on puhuttu lännempänä ja uralilaiset kielet ovat työntäneet sitä idemmäksi.

Olisihan kra001 voinut itse olla jukagiirin puhuja. Minun mielestäni jukagiiri olisi hyvä ehdokas ymjahtahin kieleksi.

Ns. Anzhevskyn arkeologinen kompleksi ei toisaalta näytä ainakaan suoraan liittyvän ymjahtah-kulttuuripiiriin. En ainakaan itse ole löytänyt artikkelia, jossa tämä olisi todettu ja kumpikin on ollut arkeologien tuntema jo kauan. Erityisesti venäläiset arkeologit ovat kirjoittaneet molemmista. Näin ollen on mahdollista, että kyseessä ovat rinnakkaisilmiöt, ilmeisesti kulttuuripiirit EDIT olisivat kuitenkin olleet toisiinsa kontaktissa. Geneettinen samankaltaisuus voisi tässä tapauksessa selittyä sillä, että neoliittista Taka-Baikalia, ilmeisesti ei kuitenkaan samoja N-linjoja, siirtyi sekä Lenalle että Angaran kautta Kanskin metsäarolle. Vaikuttaisi siltä että mesoliittisen Jakutian perimätyyppiä oli molemmissa paikoissa tarjolla, lännessä ainakin Angaran varsilla.
Avatar
Kinaporin kalifi
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 6628
Liittynyt: 14 Helmi 2011 19:18

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kristiina » 01 Elo 2025 20:07

Anzhevskyn kompleksi näyttäisi kattavan useita aikakausia:

"The objects of the Anzhevsky complex were discovered in 1972 by N.A. Savelyev. They are located in the Kan forest-steppe, territorially located in the Kansk-Rybinsk basin, on the right bank of the Kan River within the administrative boundaries of the Ilansky municipal district of Krasnoyarsk Krai. During the excavations of 2015-2016, a multi-temporal ground cemetery was discovered, containing 29 burials and functioning throughout the Neolithic Middle Ages. Preliminary analysis of the obtained materials allows us to distinguish four groups of burials. The burials of the Neolithic period constitute the first group (three burials). Partial analogies in the burial rite can be found in the burials of the Zelenogorsk burial ground and the Popikha burial site, located in the middle reaches of the Kan River, as well as in the Serov burial tradition of the Baikal region. The second group (16 burials) is dated to the Late Bronze Age and is tentatively attributed to the Krasnoyarsk culture. The third group (two burials) is also dated to the Bronze Age, but is associated with the taiga area of the Bronze Age cultures of the Baikal region and Northern Angara. The fourth group (five burials) is dated to the interval of the Early Iron Age - Middle Ages. At present, this chronological period in the archaeology of the Kansk forest-steppe has been practically unstudied. A burial with a bronze celt of the Tagar period and a burial containing protective weapons in the form of bone armor stand out."

https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/anzhe ... -kotloviny

Liittyykö kra001 siis edellä toisena mainittuun Krasnojarskin kulttuuriin vai kolmantena mainittuun Baikalin ryhmään? Jos se kuuluu kolmanteen ryhmään ja kattaa vain kaksi hautausta yhdeltä asuinpaikalta, ei liene syytä olettaa, että alueella olisi vallinnut mikään vahva kulttuuri. Jos kra001 kuului Krasnojarskin kulttuuripiiriin, eikö se pitäisi pikemminkin yhdistää Tatarka Hillin näytteisiin (mm. I20305)? Huomaan, että Tatarkan N-näyte on sijoitettu samaan kohtaan yfullin puussa kuin kra001 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS6967*/). Matka Tatarka Hillistä Kanskiin on noin 500 kilometriä, kun taas matka Kanskista esim. Angaran Zgigalovoon on 837 kilometriä.

Joka tapauksessa on olemassa paljon näytteitä Angaralta, ja Jakutia BA -perimä ilmestyy mallinnuksiin varsin myöhään eli vasta, kun kra001 ilmestyy Kanskille eli noin 2200 eaa.

Angaran vanhimmat näytteet ovat neoliittiselta ajalta 5000-4000 eaa:
Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 7160-6910 calBP I7759 Mos82 Q1b-M346
Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 6300-6210 calBP I7336 Mos111 Q1a2-M25

Neolittiselta Baikalilta on itse asiassa löytynyt Volgalla nykyisin verraten yleistä Y9023-linjaa: LNBA/ Serovo culture Sosnovy-Mys Irkutsk Obl burial 9 I1961 4239-4002 calBCE N1a1a1a-L708 ; N1a1a1a; N1a1a1a1-Y9023* Z4863 (yfull)

Näytteitä on myös jonkin verran varhaiselta pronssikaudelta:
Ust Ida LN Angara River 4860 uncal BP DA344 äitilinja A
Ust Ida LN Angara River 4730 uncal BP/4885 BP DA345/Glazkovo N1a1a1a1-M2019; N1a1a-F1419 (yfull); N1a1a1-CTS6128/Z4863 (theytree)
Ust Ida LN Angara River 4750 BP DA355/Glazkovo Q1b1b2-YP4004 (Q-L53)
Ust’Ida I Shumilikha grave 19 5580–5320 calBP CGG024591 Q1b1b2-YP4004 (Q-L53)

Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4860-4650 calBP I1526 Mos106 Q1b1-L53/S326; Q1b1b1-BZ2199 (yfull) (ISOGG 2019)
Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4850-4650 calBP I7779 Mos114 Q1b1-L53/S326
Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4790-4440 calBP I7780 Mos117 Q1b1-L53
Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4520-4410 calBP I7335 Mos110 Q1b1-L53/S326
Ust'-Belaya II Angara river 4570-4430 calBP I8295/Mos105 C4a'b'c
Ust'-Belaya II Angara river 4810-4450 calBP I7782 Mos86 D4j1

Etu-Baikalilta on paljon näytteitä myöhäisemmältä pronssikaudelta:
EBA Cis-Baikal Zvjozdochka Irkutsk Oblast 2475-2295 calBCE irk061 Q1b1a-L53; Q1b1b2-BZ2199 (yfull)
EBA Cis-Baikal Suhaja Pad’ Buret’ site Irkutsk Oblast 2475-2335 calBCE irk025 Q1b1a-L53; Q1b1b2-BZ2199 (yfull)
EBA Cis-Baikal (Glazkovo) Ust’-Dolgoe Irkutsk Oblast 2455-2200 calBCE irk022 Q1b1a3-L330; Q1b1a3a-Y11236 (yfull)

EBA Ust’Belaya Baikal 2260 BC NEO232 Q1b1; Q1b1b1-BZ2199 (yfull)

Kurma XI EBA 4078 BP DA354 Q1-F903/L472
Glazkovo Baikal BA 3854 BP DA361/Glazkovo Q1b1-L53
Glazkovo BA 3760 BP DA361/Glazkovo Q1a2a-L53; Q1b1-L53
Ust Ida Angara River EBA 3854 BP DA353/Glazkovo Q1a2a-L53; Q1b1-L53
Ust Ida Angara River EBA 3854 BP DA356/Glazkovo Q1b1-L53
Ust Ida Angara River EBA 3854 BP DA343/Glazkovo Q1b1a-L54

Shamanka II BA DA334 3764 uncal BP Q1b1-L53
Shamanka II BA DA335 3818 BP Q1b1-L53
Shamanka II BA DA336 3817.5 BP Q1b1-L53; Q1b1b2*-FT375375 (theytree)
Shamanka II BA DA337 3871 BP Q1b1-L53
Shamanka II BA DA338 3817.5 BP Q1b1-L53
Shamanka II BA DA339 3700 BP Q1b1a3-L330

Näytteitä on myös Lenalta (näillä näytteillä näyttäisi olevan jo Jamnaja-perimää):
LNBA Khaptsagai Upper Lena river 4142–3980 BP (2-sigma) KPT005 Q1a2a; Q1b1-L53/S326 (ISOGG 2019)
LNBA Khaptsagai Upper Lena river 4065–3890 BP (2-sigma) KPT003 Q1a2a; Q1b1-L53/S326 (ISOGG 2019)
LNBA Kachug Lena river 3828–3647 BP (2-sigma) KAG002 Q1a2; Q1b-M346/ L56 (ISOGG 2019)
LNBA Khaptsagai Upper Lena river 3841–3707 BP (2-sigma) KPT004 Q1a; Q1-F903/L472

Kra001 vertailukelpoinen ikä yfullin BP-ajoitusten kanssa on 4000-43000 ybp, eli meillä on jo paljon näytteitä yllä olevassa tekstipätkässä mainitulta "taiga area of the Bronze Age cultures of the Baikal region and Northern Angara".

Lisäksi huomaan, että olen liittänyt äitilinjoihin alkuperäisessä paperissa julkaistuja mallinnuksia, joista voi siis seurata perimän kehitystä Angaralla.

Middle Angara Neolithic/ Kitoi culture Irkutsk Oblast near village of Kata Sosnoviy Mis Tomsk3 burial 5 I2134.SG 5718-5556 calBCE A8a: 42% Altai NE + 30% Baikal EN + 20% Baikal LN + 5% Kork + 1% Tarim + 1% Ekven+ 1% Yellow River

Cis-Baikal LN Angara river Ust'-Belaya II Mos108A/Mos113 I8298 3790-3690 calBCE/ 5740-5640 calBP R1b1 45% Altai NE + 25% Baikal LN + 25% Baikal EN

Baikal Middle Angara LN/ Serovo culture Sosnovy-Mys Irkutsk Oblast Ust'-Ilimskiy Raion Sosnovy Island burial 9 I1961 4239-4002 calBCE A10/ A10a1 (yfull) 27% Baikal EN + 36% Baikal LN + 31% Altai NE + 3% Korj + 3% Ekven

Cis-Baikal EBA Angara river Ust'-Belaya Mos107A/ Mos107B I8296 2860-2570 calBCE F1b1b 75% BaikalLN + 25% BaikalEN

Middle Angara EBA Irkutsk Oblast Ust'-Ilimskiy Raion Ust'-Shamanka-1 single burial I2143 2841-2494 calBCE C4a1a+195
78% Baikal LN + 13% Altai NE + 6% Baikal EN + 3% Boisman

Middle Angara LNBA Glazkovo Irkutsk Oblast Ust'-Ilimskiy Raion Sosnovy-Mys-2 (island) burial 1 I20309 3300-2200 BCE A12a (isälinja Q1b1a3-L330) 56% Baikal LN + 44% Yakutia BA

Baikal Middle Angara LN/ Glazkovo Sergushkin-3 (island) Krasnoyarsk Krai Kezhemskiy Raion burial 5 I20310 3300-2200 BCE D4j4 8% Yakutia BA + 78% Baikal LN + 10% Altai NE+ 2% Baikal EN+ 2% Native AM

Jakutia-perimää ilmestyy Angaralle ilmeisesti samoihin aikoihin kuin kra001 löytää tiensä Kanskiin eli noiin 2300-2100 BC. I20309-näytteellä on lähes puolet Yakutia BA -perimää! Vain vähän alempana Angaralta olevalta Sergushkin-3 -paikalta löytyy samaan aikaan vain 8 % Jakutia BA-perimää. Toisaalta Angaralle virtaa varhaisella pronssikaudella myös perimää Altailta (mm. I2143, I20310, I2143).

Koska Jakutia-perimää ei ole löytynyt Taka-Baikalilta, miksi pitäisi olettaa, että Jakutia-perimää olisi kulkeutunut Angaralle Taka-Baikalilta?
Kristiina
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 1459
Liittynyt: 18 Maalis 2015 12:24

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Jaska » 01 Elo 2025 22:01

Kristiina kirjoitti:Neolittiselta Baikalilta on itse asiassa löytynyt Volgalla nykyisin verraten yleistä Y9023-linjaa: LNBA/ Serovo culture Sosnovy-Mys Irkutsk Obl burial 9 I1961 4239-4002 calBCE N1a1a1a-L708 ; N1a1a1a; N1a1a1a1-Y9023* Z4863 (yfull)


Tuon saapuminen liittynee vasta turkkilaisten vaelluksiin:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dn ... view=table

Toisaalta Volgalla se jakautuu pohjoiseen ja eteläiseen ryhmään jo mutaation B211 (2300 BCE) jälkeen, mutta tämä voi heijastaa kantaturkkilaisen yhteisön osajoukkoja: pohjoinen ryhmä edustaisi bolgaarilais-tshuvassilaista haaraa ja eteläinen ryhmä myöhempiä turkkilaisia. Eli nuo erot isälinjoissa saattavat juontua jo kantaturkkilaisten alkukodista Mongoliasta.


Kristiina kirjoitti:Koska Jakutia-perimää ei ole löytynyt Taka-Baikalilta, miksi pitäisi olettaa, että Jakutia-perimää olisi kulkeutunut Angaralle Taka-Baikalilta?


Olettaako joku niin?
~ "Per aspera ad hominem - vaikeuksien kautta henkilökohtaisuuksiin" ~

Y-DNA: N1c1-YP1143 (Olavi Häkkinen 1620 Kuhmo? >> Juhani Häkkinen 1816 Eno)
mtDNA: H5a1e (Elina Mäkilä 1757 Kittilä >> Riitta Sassali 1843 Sodankylä)
Avatar
Jaska
Ylihärmiö
Ylihärmiö
 
Viestit: 10156
Liittynyt: 14 Helmi 2011 04:02

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kinaporin kalifi » 02 Elo 2025 00:12

Zeng et al viittaa arkeologian osalta tähän lähteeseen, liittyen ymjahtah-anzhevskyyn: Тимощенко, А. А. Неолит и бронзовый век Канско-Рыбинской котловины. (Кемерово,1270 2013) Näyttäisi siltä, että se on hankalasti maksumuurin takana. Ehkä Merimaa onnistuu löytämään tämän jostakin? Liittyen paleosiperialaisiin Angaralla tai jossain siellä päin, mm. tämä, s. 11/48:

"The Cisbaikal_LNBA population ( ~5.1-3.6 kya) is very rich in APS ancestry, occupies a distinct position in382
PCA (Extended Data Fig 7C) and has a uniquely strong affinity to Inland Northeast Asians (Fig. 2B, SI383
Section VI.A.ii.a, VI.A.iv.a). While other APS-rich groups from Northeast Siberia are more closely related384
to Arctic populations on both sides of the Bering Straits (i.e., “Route 2” populations), Cisbaikal_LNBA is385
unique among APS-rich groups in sharing more genetic drift with present-day populations of the Yenisei386
Basin, suggesting that it may be a conduit by which APS ancestry persisted into present-day populations387
of that region (“Route 1”, Fig. 2A, Fig. 3B; Extended Data Fig. 8; SI VI.A.iv.a)."

vs. toisaalta tämä, s. 5/48:

") A Pleistocene population related to Native Americans that we call “Ancient Paleosiberians” (APS),
mixed with two East Asian ancestry sources— “Inland Northeast Asian-related” and “Amur Basin-related”
—to contribute to later populations throughout Siberia."

Eli, liitetäänkö Anzhevsky geneettisin perustein ymjahtahiin siksi, että siellä-kin APS (toistaiseksi edelleen enemmän muinaista ANE-pohjaista perimää) yhdistyy Amurilta tulevaan aasialaiseen perimään?

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 2.full.pdf

Jos APS liittyi vain Syalakh Belkachiin, mistä APS tuli Cisbaikal_LNBA-ryhmään?
Avatar
Kinaporin kalifi
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 6628
Liittynyt: 14 Helmi 2011 19:18

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kristiina » 02 Elo 2025 08:15

Jaska kirjoitti:
Kristiina kirjoitti:Neolittiselta Baikalilta on itse asiassa löytynyt Volgalla nykyisin verraten yleistä Y9023-linjaa: LNBA/ Serovo culture Sosnovy-Mys Irkutsk Obl burial 9 I1961 4239-4002 calBCE N1a1a1a-L708 ; N1a1a1a; N1a1a1a1-Y9023* Z4863 (yfull)


Tuon saapuminen liittynee vasta turkkilaisten vaelluksiin:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dn ... view=table

Toisaalta Volgalla se jakautuu pohjoiseen ja eteläiseen ryhmään jo mutaation B211 (2300 BCE) jälkeen, mutta tämä voi heijastaa kantaturkkilaisen yhteisön osajoukkoja: pohjoinen ryhmä edustaisi bolgaarilais-tshuvassilaista haaraa ja eteläinen ryhmä myöhempiä turkkilaisia. Eli nuo erot isälinjoissa saattavat juontua jo kantaturkkilaisten alkukodista Mongoliasta.


Mikä Mongolian kulttuuri mielestäsi edustaa kantaturkkilaista alkukotia? Liittyykö Y9023 Mongoliaan?

Kristiina kirjoitti:Koska Jakutia-perimää ei ole löytynyt Taka-Baikalilta, miksi pitäisi olettaa, että Jakutia-perimää olisi kulkeutunut Angaralle Taka-Baikalilta?


Jaska kirjoitti: Olettaako joku niin?


Kommentti liittyi Kinaporin kalifin lauseeseen, jota en ilmiselvästi osaa lukea oikein: " Geneettinen samankaltaisuus voisi tässä tapauksessa selittyä sillä, että neoliittista Taka-Baikalia, ilmeisesti ei kuitenkaan samoja N-linjoja, siirtyi sekä Lenalle että Angaran kautta Kanskin metsäarolle. Vaikuttaisi siltä että mesoliittisen Jakutian perimätyyppiä oli molemmissa paikoissa tarjolla, lännessä ainakin Angaran varsilla."
Kristiina
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 1459
Liittynyt: 18 Maalis 2015 12:24

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kristiina » 02 Elo 2025 08:25

Anzhevskyn kompleksia koskeva teksti on tuorein ja vuodelta 2018. kra001:n metatiedoissa mainitaan paikaksi Nefteprovod-2. Minulla ei ole mitään tietoa, liittyykö se noihin 2015-16 kaivauksiin.

Löysin Timoshenkon toisen artikkelin netistä ja se on alla englantiin käännettynä. Otsikon mukaan se käsittelee nimenomaan pronssikautta, johon kra001 kuuluu. Kyllä artikkelissa varhainen pronssikausi, johon kra001 kuuluu, jaetaan kahteen kultuuriin: edeltävään Baikalin myöhäisneoliittisen kulttuurin jatkumoon ja Jakutian ymjahtahiin. Myöhäisemmällä pronssikaudella 3500–2800 BP ymjahtah-keramiikka häviää. Tältä myöhäiskaudelta on vain kaksi hautausta, joten väestön määrä ei varmaan ollut kovin suuri.

Pakkohan tässä on lopuksi todeta, että kra001 on sekä genominlaajuisen perimänsä että arkeologisen kulttuurin perusteella osa ymjahtahia. Myös kra001:n isälinja N1a1a1a1*-CTS6967* (yfull) on lähempänä ymjahtahia (N1a1a1a1a1-Z1979* yfull) kuin Taka-Baikalia (brn003 N1a1a1a1-M2126 yfull).

https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/bronz ... emy/viewer

The results of the study of the Bronze Age archaeological complexes of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin obtained as a result of field work in 1972–2001 are summarized. The heterogeneity of the material complexes and the conditions of their stratigraphic occurrence made it possible to distinguish two chronological stages. The Early Bronze Age is dated within 4–3.5 thousand years BP and is characterized by the coexistence of the Neolithic population and the bearers of the bronze cultures of Yakutia and the Baikal region in the territory under consideration. The Late Bronze Age complexes are dated 3.5–2.8 thousand years BP. They are represented by the Krasnoyarsk culture, which is characterized by the continued development of the Neolithic traditions of ceramics production and, at the same time, the development of copper smelting. Throughout the Bronze Age, the economic structure of the population did not undergo changes, developing within the framework of the appropriating economy of hunters and gatherers. Two burials are known for the Bronze Age in the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin. They were discovered directly in the cultural layer of the site complexes. They have in common the absence of grave structures, the location of the buried in an extended position and the orientation of the head against the river flow. Keywords: Middle Yenisei, Kansk-Rybinsk Basin, Bronze Age, multi-layer settlement, burials, ceramics, metal. There are many problems in the study of the Bronze Age in Siberia, caused, first of all, by the unevenness of the archaeological study of various territories, the preservation of "blank spots" on the archaeological map. One of such areas is the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin, located on the right bank of the Yenisei between the southwestern edge of the Central Siberian Plateau and the Eastern Sayan (Fig. 1). Until the early 1970s, the sites of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin were not the subject of special study, and archaeologists' knowledge of this region was extremely superficial, considered only in the same context as the study of the Bronze Age of the Middle Yenisei. The first conclusions about the Bronze Age of the Krasnoyarsk-Kansk forest-steppe were made by researchers in the 1920s. At that time, an opinion was formed about the backwardness of this region due to its geographic isolation. This point of view was first expressed by G. Merhart [1923]. He suggested the presence on the Yenisei of an independent culture of the Bronze Age, which he designated as the Krasnoyarsk culture, based on the Neolithic culture. The researcher noted that "the use of metal tools does not change this Neolithic" and, in general, the appearance of the Krasnoyarsk culture remains Neolithic [Ibid. P. 32]. One of the main criteria for identifying the Krasnoyarsk culture, according to G. Merhart, are the so-called "Krasnoyarsk type Celts", the territory of whose distribution covers the Krasnoyarsk-Kansk forest-steppe region [Ibid. Pp. 32-35]. G. Merhart's point of view was supported by a number of Siberian archaeologists [Auerbach, 1929; Kartsov, 1929. P. 19]. The most detailed characterization of the paleometallic or early bronze Krasnoyarsk culture was given in the work of V. G. Kartsov "Materials for the Archaeology of the Krasnoyarsk Region" [1929]. In the 50-70s of the last century, although new materials did not increase significantly, the opinion about the isolation, and, due to this, the backwardness of the Bronze Age tribes of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin, was refuted by a number of researchers. R. Rygdylon concluded that there was a variant of the Karasuk culture in the Krasnoyarsk forest-steppe, dating to the Late Bronze Age [1955]. The most complete picture of development for that time was presented by G. A. Maksimenkov. He expanded the geographical boundaries of the Krasnoyarsk culture, including the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin. According to G. A. Maksimenkov, bronze cultures on the Middle Yenisei developed in parallel with the cultures of the Minusinsk region [1961]. Later, N. L. Chlenova determined the chronological framework for the existence of the Krasnoyarsk culture in the 13th–4th centuries BC [1972]. The first cultural-chronological scheme of the Neolithic and Bronze Age for the Krasnoyarsk forest-steppe was developed by N. P. Makarov as a result of his work in 1984–1991 [2005; Makarov et al., 2008]. The researcher identifies two stages in the development of the Bronze Age. The early stage is defined by the end of the 3rd millennium BC and is characterized by the preservation of Neolithic traditions, the appearance of the "Ust-Belsky" and "Glazkov" types of ceramics [Makarov, 2005. P. 162]. The late Bronze Age stage dates back to the middle of the 2nd millennium BC and is characterized by the existence of an autochthonous line of development, actively interacting with the alien population from the western regions of Siberia [Ibid. P. 163]. The territory of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin itself becomes the subject of targeted systematic archaeological study in the 1970s. Since 1972, the Kansk detachment of the Complex Archaeological Expedition of Irkutsk University began its work here. The specificity of the Irkutsk researchers was the emphasis on settlement complexes. The result of their work was a complete survey of the Kan, Usolka, and Aba rivers.

The result of the study of the Bronze Age of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin at the end of the last century was the creation of the first preliminary chronological scheme based on the Kazachok I location [Savelyev et al., 1984]. Analyzing the ceramic materials of the Bronze Age, A. G. Generalov and S. A. Dzyubas came to the conclusion about their heterogeneity. As a result, the authors identified 4 local geographical groups (Mezen, Masleev, Ulyukol, Kazachinsko-Potanchetskaya), characterizing the time period of the end of the 3rd – beginning of the 2nd millennium BC [Generalov, Dzyubas, 1982; 1986; 1991]. However, it should be noted that the ceramics of the Kazachinsko-Potanchetskaya group were considered by the authors as a single chronological group. However, at the Kazachka I, Potanchet I and II sites, several Bronze Age horizons have been recorded, belonging to different chronological stages. The remaining three groups have been identified in the north of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin at the Mezensk, Masleevo III and Ulyukol III sites. In our opinion, identifying three groups based on materials from three geographically close complexes is clearly premature. Currently, more than 50 sites are known that contain Bronze Age materials [Savelyev et al., 1992]. Due to the clear conditions of occurrence and expressiveness of the material, the following locations serve as references for the division of ceramic complexes that we attribute to the Bronze Age: Kazachka I (II, III), Zelenogorsk I (II), Zelenogorsk II (I), Potanchet I (II century, II middle, II middle), Popikha (II), Mezensk (II) and Guryev Log (Fig. 1, 1–6). They are confined to the deposits of 7–10-meter floodplain terraces of the Kan and Usolka rivers. Based on the conditions of stratigraphic occurrence and the uniqueness of the materials, it seems possible to divide the Bronze Age of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin into two chronological stages. The deposits containing Bronze Age materials belong to the subboreal stage of the Holocene (5–2.5 thousand years ago). The date of the residual magnetization of the III culture-containing horizon of Kazachki I, 3,500–3,686 years BP, fits well into this interval. Thus, we define the beginning of the Bronze Age in the range of 4–3.5 thousand years ago, which coincides with the lower boundary of the existence of Bronze Age cultures in the Baikal region. [Burakov et al., 1996; Goryunova et al., 2012. Pp. 161, 162]. According to paleoecological characteristics, the beginning of the subboreal Holocene stage is associated with fairly sharp climate changes, expressed in a significant cooling of the climate and, as a result, a significant reduction in forest areas in the region under consideration [Vorobyeva, Medvedev, 1984]. The difficulty of identifying the early stage of the Bronze Age in the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin is determined by the complete absence of metal products and traces of metal-smelting complexes. But this does not mean that they were absent, they simply have not been discovered to date. This is evidenced by the development of ceramic traditions, attributed by researchers in neighboring territories to the Early Bronze Age, dated by them to 4–3.5 thousand years ago, where these products are present [Fedoseyeva, 1980; Goryunova, 1984; Khlobystin, 1998; Makarov, 2005]. Thus, we based the identification of the Early Bronze Age stage on a comparative analysis of ceramic complexes of settlements with neighboring territories.

According to the shape of the vessels and the method of ornamentation, three groups of ceramics are distinguished in the Early Bronze Age horizons. Smooth-walled vessels of a simple open shape, ornamented with horizontal and vertical rows of impressions of a comb stamp (Fig. 2, 1, 2). The ceramics of this group are similar to the late Neolithic, both in the composition of the dough and the shape of the vessels, and in the ornamentation. The ornamentation covers the upper third of the vessels. It is represented by vertical and horizontal impressions of dotted comb stamps, only as an additional ornament under the rim, instead of pit impressions, there are belts of "pearls". Apparently, here we are faced with the continuation of the development of the local Neolithic ornamental tradition. Round-bottomed vessels of simple open shape with traces of beating with a ribbed spatula and ornamented only with a belt of “pearls” (Fig. 2, 4) are completely identical to the ceramics attributed to the Glazkov burial culture of the Baikal region, dated according to C14 to 3,900–3,000 years ago. [Goryunova, 1992; Goryunova, Savelyev, 1990; Goryunova et al., 2012]. In vessels of simple closed shape with traces of beating with a ribbed spatula on the outer surface, traces of wool are recorded in the composition of the ceramic molding mass. The ornament in the form of double incised lines, forming a composition in the form of a horizontal zigzag, occupies the upper third of the vessels (Fig. 2, 3). As an additional ornament - a belt of “pearls” under the rim. The ceramics of this group, in terms of ornamentation technique and composition of the molding mass, completely coincide with the Ymyyakhtakh culture of Yakutia [Fedoseeva, 1980; Alekseev, 1996; Dyakonov, 2007; 2008]. The time of existence according to C14 is determined within the framework of 3,900 ± 50 – 3,100 ± 100 years BC [Fedoseeva, 1980]. Such a clearly expressed stable combination of various ceramic traditions leaves no doubt that they were left by bearers of different cultural traditions and are associated with the direct penetration of population groups from various territories of Siberia, primarily from the eastern direction - from Yakutia and the Baikal region. The question arises whether the bearers of different cultural traditions lived in the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin at the same time or did they replace each other successively? Despite the complexity of micro-chronological determinations, it seems that under the conditions of an appropriative economy and a relatively low population density, the cohabitation of different cultural groups of hunters and fishermen in the territory under consideration is quite possible. The stone inventory also emphasizes the general trend in the development of East Siberian Bronze Age cultures associated with the degradation of plate technology, the reduction of tool types and their universalization. Most of the tools characteristic of the Neolithic, such as inserts, cutters, piercers, etc., completely disappear from the inventory. The material for obtaining tool blanks was randomly chipped nodules of rocks, from which massive flakes and lamellar chips were obtained. Massive flakes with marginal retouching, located either on the distal segment or on the margin, without additional decoration of the back and blade, were used as universal tools that functioned as scrapers and knives. The most common finds among the stone tools are arrowheads. They are represented by oval, leaf-shaped forms, as well as triangular ones with a straight, less often symmetrically convex base. The formation time of the Late Bronze Age horizons falls on the final of the Subboreal period (3.5–2.5 thousand years ago), which is consistent with the date of residual magnetization of the II cultural horizon of Kazachki I - 2,950–3,320 years ago [Burakov et al., 1996]. Iron products were first found in deposits of the Subatlantic period (0–2.5 thousand years ago); the date based on residual magnetization of the Kazachki I cultural horizon, containing ceramics from the early Iron Age, is 1,950–2,400 years ago [Ibid.].

All this allows dating the Late Bronze Age to the period of 3.5–2.8 thousand years BP. At the late stage of the Bronze Age, the population of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin became familiar with copper processing methods, as evidenced by the finds of copper “splashes”, fragments of a casting mold, and fragments of ore from the Popikha site [Timoshchenko, 2010]. But despite the emergence of a new metalworking industry, the traditional economic structure of the population did not undergo changes, continuing to develop within the framework of an appropriative economy. The number of metal products recorded at the settlements is not large, they are represented by fragments of five miniature single-bladed knives. Four of them were found at the Popikha settlement, one at the Mezensk settlement. X-ray fluorescence analysis (performed by Doctor of Historical Sciences A. A. Tishkin in the laboratory of Altai State University) of metal products demonstrated a similar technological process for obtaining these objects. All of them consist of a copper base by 98–99%, with components such as arsenic, nickel, lead, and iron. The use of raw materials with an admixture of arsenic for smelting brings these tools closer to the Krasnoyarsk and Minusinsk products [Timoshchenko, 2010; Novykh, 2010]. The ceramics of the late Bronze Age are completely identical to the vessels of the previous stage in terms of the molding method and dough composition. In terms of shape, the vessels are divided into simple open (14.3%), simple closed (64.3%), and complex closed (21.4%) forms, the latter having a weakly expressed neck. At this stage, the appearance of vessels with a flat bottom is recorded for the first time (Fig. 2, 13, 14). Ymyyakhtakh ceramics completely disappeared from the settlement materials. Vessels with applied and coated rollers appeared in isolated copies, which were further developed in the Early Iron Age. In general, the ceramic inventory was dominated by ornamentation of the upper third of the vessel with horizontal rows of a comb stamp, which was developed at the Late Neolithic stage and is associated by us with the autochthonous population [Makarov, 2005. P. 163] (Fig. 2, 9, 12, 14–16). Along with them, vessels ornamented only with “pearl” impressions continued to exist. Only now they have either a simple open or a complex closed form (Fig. 2, 6, 7). In isolated examples, vessels decorated with differently inclined impressions of a retreating spatula and vessels decorated with horizontal "zigzags" of incised lines appeared (Fig. 2, 5, 11, 17). In the latter, unlike the vessels of the early stage of the Bronze Age, neither traces of beating nor admixture of wool were noted. Thus, at the stage of the late Bronze Age, a unique cultural community was formed in the territory of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin, called by a number of authors the "Krasnoyarsk culture". This culture, closely associated with the continuation of the development of Neolithic traditions of ceramics production and having mastered the smelting of copper products, developed in parallel with the synchronous Minusinsk and Baikal cultures. At present, a more in-depth characterization of the Late Bronze Age is difficult due to the lack of identified and studied burial grounds and burial mounds. Nevertheless, the existence of this type of sources is indirectly confirmed by numerous bronze items that were received by the Kansk Museum of Local History as random finds from local residents. There is also a known fact of the acquisition of bronze items by the Zelenogorsk Museum from “black” archaeologists. The most common items in these collections are “earless socket axes” with geometric ornamentation, defined by G. Merhart as “Krasnoyarsk axes”, as well as random finds of Celts, similar in shape and ornamentation to the Minusinsk ones [1923; Generalov, Dzyubas, 1995]. Determining the age and cultural attribution of these items is problematic. Most often, they are attributed to the late stage of the Karasuk – early stage of the Tagar culture [Maksimenkov, 1960; Generalov, Dzyubas, 1995; Makarov, 2010].

So far, only two burials in the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin can be attributed to the Bronze Age: No. 1 from the Popikha site and No. 1 from the Guryev Log site. All of them were discovered directly in the settlement complexes. The buried were located in an extended position, with their heads facing the river current (Fig. 3, 1, 2). The accompanying inventory of burial No. 1 in Popikha is represented by a miniature single-bladed copper knife - it lay on the right side of the skull (Fig. 3, a, 3), an arrowhead made of light flint of a regular triangular shape with a straight base near the left foot (Fig. 3, b) and a flint flake near the right shoulder (Fig. 3, c). In terms of metal composition, the knife is completely analogous to the copper items from the settlement complexes [Timoshchenko, 2010]. In the burial of Guryev Log, there were no accompanying goods; a small round hearth was found in the area of the head of the deceased (Fig. 3, 2). Due to the small number of burials and their inexpressiveness, it is not yet possible to talk about their cultural affiliation. As a result of the study, it was established that the Early Bronze Age in the territory of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin is dated to 4–3.5 thousand years BP. At this stage, intensive diffusion between "related" cultures united by a common line of development led to the "blurring" of the boundaries between tribes, the exchange of cultural information, some cultural leveling and, ultimately, to their cohabitation in the forest-steppe and taiga territories from the Yenisei to Transbaikalia. The existence of Late Bronze Age complexes falls within the chronological range of 3.5–2.8 thousand years BP. Against the background of the development of bright cultures of the late stage of the Bronze Age in the south of Yenisei and Western Siberia, there were no significant changes in the materials of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin. With the transition to a settled and semi-settled way of life in neighboring territories, cultural contacts between them were reduced to a minimum, as a result of which the pace of development at this stage slowed down. In this form, the cultures of the tribes of the Kansk-Rybinsk Basin continued to exist until the Iron Age.
Kristiina
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 1459
Liittynyt: 18 Maalis 2015 12:24

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Jaska » 02 Elo 2025 09:31

Kristiina kirjoitti:Mikä Mongolian kulttuuri mielestäsi edustaa kantaturkkilaista alkukotia? Liittyykö Y9023 Mongoliaan?


Kielitiede sijoittaa turkkilaisen alkukodin Mongoliaan.

Kristiina kirjoitti:
Jaska kirjoitti: Olettaako joku niin?


Kommentti liittyi Kinaporin kalifin lauseeseen, jota en ilmiselvästi osaa lukea oikein: " Geneettinen samankaltaisuus voisi tässä tapauksessa selittyä sillä, että neoliittista Taka-Baikalia, ilmeisesti ei kuitenkaan samoja N-linjoja, siirtyi sekä Lenalle että Angaran kautta Kanskin metsäarolle. Vaikuttaisi siltä että mesoliittisen Jakutian perimätyyppiä oli molemmissa paikoissa tarjolla, lännessä ainakin Angaran varsilla."


Okei. kiitos selvennyksestä.
~ "Per aspera ad hominem - vaikeuksien kautta henkilökohtaisuuksiin" ~

Y-DNA: N1c1-YP1143 (Olavi Häkkinen 1620 Kuhmo? >> Juhani Häkkinen 1816 Eno)
mtDNA: H5a1e (Elina Mäkilä 1757 Kittilä >> Riitta Sassali 1843 Sodankylä)
Avatar
Jaska
Ylihärmiö
Ylihärmiö
 
Viestit: 10156
Liittynyt: 14 Helmi 2011 04:02

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kinaporin kalifi » 02 Elo 2025 10:28

Kanskin metsäarolta tosiaan löytyy Timosenkon ilmaispaperin mukaan sekä ymjahtahin että baikalin suunnan aineistoa, mutta itseäni hieman häiritsee mm. se, että mitään jatkuvuutta ei esim. ymjahtah-keramiikan osalta osoiteta lännen suuntaan. Mm. samus-kizhirovon kirveiden (ja ilmeisesti liittyen muuhunkin materiaaliin) osalta Kuzminnyh 2011 kommentti nostaa toisaalta esille Keski-Uralin roolin ja kontaktialueen, joka ulottuu idässä Tunkan laaksoon asti Burjatiassa. Kielitaito on mitä on, joten en oikein ymmärrä kaikkea, toivottavasti joku venäjää osaava kommentoi asiaa. Tekstiä ei voi ladata ja kääntää, valitettavasti:

https://sciup.org/sejminsko-turbinskaja ... y-14328439

Eli, en pidä täysin poissuljettuna että Zeng et al on hieman oikaissut liittäessään Kanskin metsäaron tapahtumat sellaisenaan ymjahtahiin, vaikka kontaktipinta ja yhteiset geneettiset juuret, mutta mahdollisesti kolmannen alueen kautta, vaikuttavat aivan todelliselta. Toinen vaihtoehto on edelleen se, että Anzhevsky/Tatarka/jne. ovat ymjahtahin rinnakkaisilmiö.
Avatar
Kinaporin kalifi
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 6628
Liittynyt: 14 Helmi 2011 19:18

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kristiina » 02 Elo 2025 11:41

Jaska kirjoitti:
Kristiina kirjoitti:Mikä Mongolian kulttuuri mielestäsi edustaa kantaturkkilaista alkukotia? Liittyykö Y9023 Mongoliaan?


Kielitiede sijoittaa turkkilaisen alkukodin Mongoliaan.


Tuo on ilmeisesti nimenomaan Janhusen kanta.

Wikipedia määrittelee alueen väljemmin:

Candidates for the Proto-Turkic homeland range from western Central Asia to Manchuria,[4] with most scholars agreeing that their migrations started from the eastern part of the Central Asian steppe. [5]

[4]: Yunusbayev, Bayazit; Metspalu, Mait; Metspalu, Ene; Valeev, Albert (21 April 2015). "The Genetic Legacy of the Expansion of Turkic-Speaking Nomads across Eurasia". PLOS Genetics. 11 (4): e1005068. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1005068. ISSN 1553-7404. PMC 4405460. PMID 25898006. The origin and early dispersal history of the Turkic peoples is disputed, with candidates for their ancient homeland ranging from the Transcaspian steppe to Manchuria in Northeast Asia.

[5] Robbeets, Martine; Savelyev, Alexander (21 December 2017). Language Dispersal Beyond Farming. John Benjamins Publishing Company. p. 127. ISBN 978-90-272-6464-0. "It is generally agreed among historians and linguists that the starting point of the Turkic migrations was located in the eastern part of the Central Asian steppe (see, e.g., Golden 1992, Kljastornyj & Suktanov 2009; Menges 1995:55). Turkologists use various definitions for describing the Proto-Turkic homeland, but most indicate more or less the same region. While Janhunen (1996:26, 2015:293) locates the Proto-Turkic homeland fairly precisely in Eastern Mongolia, Rona-Tas (1998:88), in a rather general manner, places the last habitat of the Turkic speakers before the disintegration of the family "in west and central Siberia and in the region south of it." The latter localization overlaps in large part with that proposed by Tenisev et al. (2006), who associate the Proto-Turkic urheimat with the vast area stretching from the Ordos Desert in Inner Mongolia to the foothils of the Sayan-Altai mountains in Southern Siberia."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Turkic_language

Turkinkielinen Wikipedia näköjään sijoittaa alkukodin Altaille kysymysmerkillä.
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96n_T%C3%BCrk%C3%A7e
Kristiina
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 1459
Liittynyt: 18 Maalis 2015 12:24

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kristiina » 02 Elo 2025 12:37

@ Kinaporin kalifi

Sain tuosta Samus-Kizhirovo -aiheisesta artikkelista aikaiseksi alla olevan Google-käännöksen:

Monuments with metal and casting molds of the Samus-Kizhirovo type
As in the 1989 book, the reference to bronzes and casting molds of this type is due to the fact that the problem of the relationship between metalworking of the Samus-Kizhirovo type and Seima-Turbino continues to be relevant in the Ural-West Siberian archaeology of the Late Bronze Age. Moreover, over these years, fundamentally new materials have appeared that shed light on the formation of Samus-Kizhirovo metalworking, the range of cultures and communities associated with it, and the dynamics of its development. Unlike the summary of Seima-Turbino bronzes, in this section I did not aim to take into account all the known finds of the Samus-Kizhirovo type. For me, it was important to present the most important materials in terms of quality.
The sanctuary or votive hoard Vis 2 (Komi Republic, Knyazhpogosky district, village of Sindor). During excavations by V. S. Zelensky in 1997 and V. N. Karmanov in 1999, the only complex of materials with tools of the Samus-Kizhir type (6 specimens) was discovered in Eastern Europe (bone remains of the buried were not found). Among them are a celt of the K-40 type, but with "false" eyes; a dagger of the KZh-8 type; a knife of the NK-8 type; a narrow lanceolate knife with a rib on the blade and a sharpened handle; a knife-scraper of the NK-24 type; an awl or rod (Fig. 3, 1–6).

Cult monument (sanctuary) Shaitanskoye Ozero II (Kirovgrad district, Sverdlovsk region). From the excavations of Yu. B. Serikov in 2006–2007, O. N. Korochkova and V. I. Stefanov in 2008–2010, 188 bronze objects were recovered. Most of the materials, with the exception of the excavations of 2009–2010, have been published ( Serikov, 2006. Fig. 1, 1 ; Serikov et al., 2008; 2009; Korochkova, Stefanov, 2010). The metal of the monument (Fig. color. VIII) is morphologically divided into three groups. The Seima-Turbino group includes double-edged lamellar knives (classes NK-2 and NK-4, less often NK-6) ( Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 4, 3–8, 5; Korochkova, Stefanov, 2010. Fig. 3B, 1, 3 ), knife-scrapers (NK-24) and other combined tools made on the basis of or from fragments of lamellar knives ( Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 4, 12, 6, 46, 47, 49; Korochkova, Stefanov, 2010. Fig. 3A, 15, 3B, 10 ), two miniature earless celts (K-14) ( Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 7, 8 ; Korochkova, Stefanov, 2010. Fig. 3A, 11). The Samus-Kizhirovskaya group includes a series of celts with one or two "false" ears (categories K-46 and K-48) (Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 7, 1–7, 11, 12, 8, 9; Korochkova, Stefanov, 2010. Fig. 3A, 18), a dagger with a ring pommel, a plate blade and a flat handle decorated on both sides with hatched rhombuses and triangles (Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 4, 20, 10, 1). The Eurasian group is characterized by double-edged daggers with cast-on handles (KZh-8) ( Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 4, 16, 17, 21, 10, 2, 11), models of slotted handles ( Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 4, 1, 2), knives with a crossguard and interception (NK-14 and NK-16) ( Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 4, 9, 10, 13–15; Korochkova, Stefanov, 2010. Fig. 3A, 12, 17), forged chisels and adzes ( Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 6, 51; Korochkova, Stefanov, 2010. Fig. 3A, 16 ), a spearhead (KD-36), their fragments and model ( Serikov et al. , 2009. Fig. 6, 37–39 ; Korochkova, Stefanov , 2010. Fig. 3A, 2 ), plate and rod bracelets and rings, etc. ( Serikov et al. , 2009. Fig. 6, Fig. 3. Celts of the Seima-Turbino (2, 3) and Samusko-Kizhirovsky (1) types 1 – Sulem; 2 – Kanonerka; 3 – Nikolaevka (bronze) 42–45, 52–54, 64 ), well known primarily in the steppe and forest-steppe cultures – Sintashta, Petrovka, Alakul, etc.). A number of items, both unique (sleeve-shaped chisels) (Serikov et al., 2009. Fig. 7, 9, 10; Korochkova, Stefanov, 2010. Fig. 3A, 1), and the bulk of forging and casting waste, are not associated with any particular morphological group of metal. The general syncretic nature of the complex of bronze and copper items of the site, which has a Seima-Turbino basis, is a reflection of the initial phase of the development of metalworking of the Samus-Kizhir type, which after some time will spread to a number of cultures of the taiga and forest-steppe zones of Western and Eastern Siberia. One of its distinctive features will be precisely the "false" ears of celts and spearheads (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. Pp. 147, 157). The Shaitanskoye Ozero II monument itself is associated with the cult practice of the Koptyakov culture population (Korochkova, Stefanov, 2010. P. 129).

The Palatki 1 (Iset 1) settlement near Yekaterinburg; a fragment of a talc mold matrix for casting a dagger of the KZh-8 category (Viktorova, 2001. Fig. 5, Earlier, a dagger of the same type and a fragment of a celt with a "carpet" ornament of the K-50 category were found here ( Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. Fig. 65, 6, 79, 7; Viktorova, 2001. Fig. 5, 3, 7 ). These finds are most likely associated with the Koptyakov-Cherkaskul cultural complex of the site.

SAO (northern shore of Lake Andreyevskoye near Tyumen), a complex of finds associated with a sanctuary or votive treasure; among them is a false-ear celt of the K-50 category (information from V. I. Stefanov and O. N. Korochkova). Tartas-1 burial ground (Vengerovsky district of Novosibirsk region, Barabinsk forest-steppe). From the Late Krotovo culture site 323 comes a fragment of a clay mold matrix for casting a celt of the K-44 category (conditionally) ( Molodin, Mylnikova et al., 2009. pp. 338, 339. Fig. 1, 3 ).

Tanai 5 settlement (Toguchinsky district, Novosibirsk region); a matrix of a stone mold for casting a celt of the K-50 category ( Bobrov, 2000. Fig. 2) (Fig. 1, 2 ); associated with the Samus culture ceramic complex.

Umna-6 settlement (Kolyvansky district, Novosibirsk region); two clay mold matrices for casting a celt-shovel ( Borodovsky, 2002. Fig. 1, 1–3 ). There are no metal examples of Umna-6 type tools with a strongly protruding socket. The valves were clearly "buried" on the periphery of the monument, and covered from above by a cluster of Krokhalev type ceramics ( Borodovsky , 2002. pp. 163, 165).

A burial ground or grave near Novosibirsk; a celt of the K-52 category ( Soloviev, Chibiryak , 2001. Figs. 1–5) was discovered on the city beach. The authors of the publication suggest that it got here together with sand taken for the improvement of the beach in the coastal zone of the Ob River upstream or downstream from the city ( Soloviev, Chibiryak , 2001. p. 454). Fragments of a wooden insert from a composite handle are well preserved in the socket of the tool ( Soloviev, Chibiryak , 2001. Figs. 6–9). This detail allowed us to correlate the find with the destroyed burial (Soloviev, Chibiryak, 2001. P. 454). Indeed, almost all the preserved wooden handle parts of the Bronze and Early Iron Age Celts in Northern Eurasia come from burial sites – from the Seimin-Turbino to the Ananyino, Akozin-Melar and Kulai. A. I. Soloviev and V. E. Chibiryak (2001. P. 456, 457) associate this tool with the late stage of the Samus culture.

Ozernoye burial ground (Ongudaysky district of the Altai Republic); A burial of the Karakol culture was uncovered in a stone box during excavation work ( Molodin, 2006. pp. 273–282) with a vessel, a bronze plate, and a stone matrix for casting a celt-shovel ( Kubarev, 1988. Fig. 65, 2 ; Grushin et al., 2009. Fig. 2, 1 ). The upper part of the valve is lost, as a result of which the type of tool cannot be reconstructed. The ratio of the sizes of the sleeve and the blade is not typical for Seima-Turbino samples. Shkolny settlement (Prokopyevsk district of the Kemerovo region, at the headwaters of the Karagayla River). From the excavations of M. G. Elkin come three matrices of sandstone casting molds for casting KD-48 spearheads (Bobrov, 2005. Fig. 2, 1, 3, 4) and one clay one for casting an anthropomorphic figure (Bobrov, 2005. Fig. 2, 2). Their connection with the ceramic complex of the Samus culture is noted (Bobrov, 2005. Pp. 54, 57).

The settlement of Kuznetsk 1/2 (Novokuznetsk, Kemerovo Region), the monument is located in the immediate vicinity of the historical center of Kuznetsk - Kuznetsk Fortress (near the Transfiguration Cathedral). In the layer of the settlement with pseudo-textile ceramics of the Krokhalev culture, fragments of clay casting molds were found: 1) part of a matrix for casting a celt of the K-38 or K-40 category ( Shirin , 2008. Fig. 6, 1 ); 2) the upper part of the core for molding a ribbed bushing of spearheads of the KD-48 category ( Shirin , 2008. Fig. 6, 2 ). The best example of a matrix with a negative of a spearhead with a similar bushing is known from the settlement of Samus 4 ( Chernykh, Kuzminykh , 1989. Fig. 82, 1 ).

Settlement Dolgaya 1 (Yashkinsky district of the Kemerovo region, at the mouth of the Dolgaya River). During the excavations of 2010, a fragment of a clay casting mold for casting a celt-scapula was found in a layer with Krokhalevskaya culture ceramics (information from A. G. Marochkin and I. V. Kovtun). The reconstructed tool is morphologically similar to those that were cast in matrices from the Umna-6 settlement.

Burial ground on Mount Tatarka (Sharypovsky district of Krasnoyarsk Krai). In 1998–2000, A. S. Vdovin’s excavations examined a late Bronze Age monument whose burial rite and material culture are characterized by features of the cultures of neighboring regions. In metal (single-edged and, less frequently, double-edged knives, "horned" bracelets, rings covered with gold foil, various plate ornaments, etc.) there are clear manifestations of the forest-steppe "andronoid" cultures of Western Siberia (such as Elovka 2, Sopka-2, Chernoozerye 1). Stone burial structures and jade rings indicate connections with the cultures of the Baikal region. The Minusinsk line of connections, despite the geographical proximity of the basin, is reflected in the monument to the least extent. For the first time, two false-ear celts of the K-54 13 category were reliably discovered in the burial grounds (p. 14 and 15). Earlier finds of tools of this type also come from the Yenisei (2 specimens) and Vasyugan (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. P. 154).

The Bronze site near the village of Tunka (Republic of Buryatia, Tunkinskaya Basin, middle reaches of the Irkut River, in the gap between the Black and White Mountains). Together with the Glazkovo culture ceramics, a talc mold for casting a celt comes from the collections (Ugolkov, Ugolkova, 2001. Tables 51–53). Its ornamental composition corresponds to the tools of the K-52 category, but the celt reconstructed from the matrix is noticeably larger than the known samples (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. Fig. 79, 8, 80, 1, 2, 4); it also differs in noticeable ears-protrusions, similar to the tool from the settlement of Goremyk on Baikal (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. Fig. 80, 8).

The Shenna settlement (near the city of Xining, Qinghai Province in northwest China). In one of the storage pits, attributed to the late Shenna period (Molodin, Komissarov, 2001. p. 377), a spearhead was discovered (Molodin, Komissarov, 2001. Fig. on p. 375; Chernykh, 2009. Fig. 14.3, 3), which, judging by the morphological features, is an imitation of the known Seima-Turbino spears with a KD-10 rank hook (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. Figs. 29, 30; Molodin, Neskorov, 2010. Figs. 1, 2, 3, 2). Based on these features, I assume that it belongs to the number of post-Seimin (but not Samus-Kizhirovo) weapon samples. Its overall length is striking – 61.5 cm. The Qinghai tip has a “fork” (or, in fact, an imitation of it) formed not at the base of the feather, but at the top of the sleeve; the rounded (not rhombic!) in cross-section feather shaft “enters” the sleeve; the hook is located on the opposite side from the side eye; it is distinguished from the spears from Rostovka and from near Omsk by its rounded tip, possibly indicating the cutting function of the weapon in combat readiness.

Random finds of Samus-Kizhirovsky type items

Sulem village (near Pervouralsk, Sverdlovsk region, Chusovaya river); celt – variant of the K-48 category (with a “blind” eye and a ladder-shaped belt) ( Serikov , 2006. Fig. 1, 9 ) (Fig. 2, 1 ).

The village of Souzga (Maiminsky District of the Altai Republic); the spearhead is a variant of the KD-48 category (without an eye) (Kocheyev, 1997. Fig. 1, 1).

Overview of the Samus-Kizhir bronze database

Thus, in addition to the 1989 summary, 24 metal finds 14 and 13 casting molds were taken into account, of which 6 items were in the European zone (and these are the first finds of the Samus-Kizhir type west of the Urals - the sanctuary or votive hoard Vis 2), and 18 items and all casting molds were in the Asian zone. The materials of the Asian zone are distributed as follows: random finds - 2 tools, sanctuaries or votive hoards - 12, settlements - 11 casting molds 15, burial grounds - 4 metal items and 2 casting molds.

Distribution by classes: tools and weapons - 23 items and 12 casting molds, cult items (anthropomorphic figure) - casting mold and undefined - plate from the Ozernoye burial ground. Distribution by categories of tools and weapons: celts - 16 + 7 face plates, knives - 3, daggers - 2 + 1 face plate, spearheads - 1 + 4 face plates, awls - 1 item. In the Samus-Kizhirovskaya series of tools and weapons, the most noticeable increase compared to the early sample (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. p. 146) is associated with celts: the number of metal samples has almost doubled - and still due to tools of the so-called Kizhirov type 16 (with "false" ears and rich geometric decor); the number of casting molds increased by a quarter. The remaining categories are quite small in both the early and current samples, so their correct comparison is impossible.

It is noteworthy that the most significant increase in Samus-Kizhir bronzes in recent decades was given by sanctuaries or other cult sites - primarily Vis 2 and Shaitanskoye Ozero II. In the 1989 sample, E. N. Chernykh and I associated the bulk of the materials with settlements, although in light of recent research, it is necessary to adjust previous ideas, especially with respect to the Samus 4 and Saygatino VI (Ostyatsky Zhivets VI) sites. Thus, it is assumed that the first of them "was not a settlement or production center, but primarily a sacred center, visited at a certain time of the year and associated with events and rituals of obtaining and distributing metal and making (more symbolic than real) bronze tools. Within the framework of this hypothesis, the current problem of the relationship between the various complexes of Samus IV can be interpreted not through the model of a multi-layered settlement, but through the participation in the rituals of bearers of various cultural traditions" (Vasiliev, 2001. P. 26). At present, V. I. Stefanov and O. N. Korochkova - in light of the studies of Shaitanskoye Ozero II - are inclined to consider Saygatino VI as a cult monument.

Touching upon the morphological characteristics of the new tools and weapons of the Samus-Kizhirovsky type, I will note that, using the example of the Vis 2 Celts, another previously unknown line of transformation of the Seima-Turbino morphological stereotypes has emerged. It is associated with the belt celts of the K-6 category, the main mass of which comes from the Turbinsky 1 burial ground (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. Pp. 39, 46). However, the false-ear celts of the variant known in Vis 2 did not receive further distribution in Northern Eurasia. This line of development turned out to be a dead end. At the same time, using the example of the Samus belt tools of the K-40 category (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. Pp. 148, 152) we see the main line of transformation of the belt tools of Turbino 17.

On the basis of the Seima-Turbino tools of the K-4 category (the so-called undecorated), discovered mainly in Eastern and Northern Europe (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. Pp. 39), a type of tool with a wide collar along the mouth of the socket and lacking massive “stiffening ribs” bordering the chamfer was formed in Fennoscandia (Meinander, 1954. Taf. 10, e, f) 18. The chronological position of these celts has not yet been determined, so their relationship with the Seima-Turbino tools, as well as with the series Eurasian celts of the Late Bronze Age, the socket of which is reinforced with a massive roller-rim (Loboykovki, Derbedenevskie, etc.). Apparently, we are dealing with a narrow local group of tools that morphologically continue the Seima-Turbino line of development.

A series of false-eared celts discovered at the Shaitanskoye Ozero II sanctuary (Fig. color. VIII, 5, 7, 8) confirmed the guess about the original models of the Kizhirov celts with "false" ears and the so-called "carpet" pattern (Chernykh, Kuzminykh, 1989. Pp. 152, 154). A number of random finds from the Trans-Urals and the matrix from Saigatino VI (classes K-46 and K-48) were classified by E. N. Chernykh and I at the time as transitional types from the Seima-Turbino tools to the Kizhirov ones. In light of the Shaitanozero finds, it became clear that the formation and establishment of the Samus-Kizhirovsky type metalworking took place in the mountain-forest and forest regions of the Middle Trans-Urals on the basis of the Seima-Turbino and Sintashta-Petrovsky traditions. Somewhat later, with the formation of the suite of the so-called "Andronoid" cultures, the Samus-Kizhirovsky type metalworking took root in most of the taiga and forest-steppe cultures of Western Siberia; its extreme limit in the east was the Tunkinskaya Basin in the Baikal region. West of the Urals, apart from isolated tools from the Vis 2 sanctuary, there are no clear traces of metalworking of this circle. In most of the forest and forest-steppe belt of Eastern Europe, celts began to be made, the relationship of which with the Seima-Turbino ones is only sometimes detected in the decor (belts-"ladders", geometric figures), but morphologically the series of eared and earless celts of the end of the Bronze Age (Chernykh, 1976. Table I) are very far from the Seima-Turbino and Samus-Kizhirovo ones. This line of development "emerges" here only in the Early Iron Age - the hexagonal series of celts of the Ananyino world and the Itkul culture (Kuzminykh, 1983. Tables XIII-XXII).

It is important to note that the Kizhirov tools of the K-52 and K-54 classes, which belong to the latest types of celts of the Seima-Turbino line of development (Gryaznov, 1941. pp. 237-271), were first discovered in burial sites of the Ob-Yenisei interfluve (the burial ground on Mount Tatarka and the burial near Novosibirsk), and in the first of them, manifestations of the West Siberian "andronoid" cultures are distinct. In concluding the review of the Samus-Kizhir bronzes, it is necessary to pay attention to the dominance of new finds in the Middle Trans-Urals in the area of the Koptyakov and Cherkaskul "andronoid" cultures, along the ribbon pine forests of the Ob Right Bank and in the Ob-Yenisei interfluve (the Samus, Krokhalev and "andronoid" type of culture). In the east, the area of the characteristic ("carpet") Kizhirov Celts reached the Baikal region (Tunkinskaya Basin); their connection here with one of the stages of the Glazkov culture cannot be ruled out.

Acknowledgments. The discussion of the Seima-Turbino and Samus-Kizhirov problems in the last two decades was carried out in close communication with E. N. Chernykh, V. I. Molodin, V. V. Bobrov, Yu. F. Kiryushin, V. I. Stefanov, O. N. Korochkova and I. V. Kovtun, and it was very valuable and useful for me and, I hope, for my colleagues. My sincere gratitude to S. V. Studzitskaya, V. V. Sidorov (Moscow), B. S. Solovyov (Yoshkar-Ola), V. S. Zelensky and V. N. Karmanov (Syktyvkar), M. V. Ivanishcheva (Vologda), A. F. Melnichuk (Perm), Yu. B. Serikov (Nizhny Tagil), E. M. Bes-prozvanny (Ekaterinburg), A.V. Polevodov (Omsk), V.K. Mertz (Pavlodar), S.P. Grushin (Barnaul), A.G. Marochkin (Kemerovo) and Yu.V. Shirin (Novokuznetsk), who assisted in collecting materials.
Kristiina
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 1459
Liittynyt: 18 Maalis 2015 12:24

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kristiina » 02 Elo 2025 13:20

Huomioita:

Samus-Kizhirovon tärkein löytöpaikka näyttäisi olevan Shaitanskoye Ozero II:n kulttipaikka (Kirovgrad district, Sverdlovsk region). Kohta sijaitsee hieman Jekaterinburgista luoteeseen eli ihan Uralilla ollaan. Ydinalue näyttäisi muutenkin olevan aika lailla lännessä. Toinen tärkeä paikka on Vis 2, joka sijaitsee Komin tasavallassa. Olisi todella hienoa, jos unkarilaiset julkaisisivat tänä vuonna näytteitä Jekaterinburgin lähistöltä.

En näe tämän varsin yksityiskohtaisen löytöinventaarion perusteella mitään syytä olettaa, että kra001 liittyisi millään lailla Samus-Kizhirovoon. kra001 näyttää tämänkin valossa vain Ymjahtahilta. Tässä jälkimmäisessä tekstissä mainitaan myös Tatarka Hill, mutta Samus-Kizhirovon näytteet liittyvät ilmeisesti myöhempään vaiheeseen kuin Tatarka Hillin N-mies, I20305, 2288-2058 calBCE. Itse asiassa on olemassa pronssikautinen Tatarkan näyte, joka sopisi paremmin tähän vaiheeseen: Andronovo Tatarka cemetery burial 64 Russia S07 U4d1, C-M130, 1550 BP (https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna ... p=500000,0). Lisäksi tekstissä kai sanotaan, että Tatarkan näytteet ovat andronoidisia eli lähempänä Elovka 2:ta, Sopka-2:ta, Chernoozerye:ta. Niiltä löydetyt isälinjat ovat pääasiassa R -haploja ja muutama Q-haplokin mahtuu joukkoon. Tosin näihin kuuluu jo kuusi vuotta sitten julkisuuteen vuotanut N1c1a1a2-näyte, jota ei ole edelleenkään julkaistu.

Tekstissä mainitaan muitakin paikkoja, joilta on jo saatu muinaisDNA:ta. Yksi niistä on Tartas 1. Sieltä on löytynyt lähinnä Q-haploja ja yksikään ei ollut Vladimir Taraskinin mukaan N-haplo. Tanai 5:stä ei ole näytteitä, mutta muista Tanain hautapaikoista on kylläkin (Tanay XII, Tanay VII, Tanay I, Tanay II). Ne ovat pääasiassa R-haploja, mutta yksi N-haplo sieltä näyttää löytyneen. Tosin se taitaa olla N2, kuten Unkarin Ir1.
Kristiina
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 1459
Liittynyt: 18 Maalis 2015 12:24

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kristiina » 02 Elo 2025 18:47

Ajoituksista vielä sen verran, että 'Issues in the Calendar Chronology of the Seima-Turbino Transcultural Phenomenon' -artikkelin mukaan Shaytankan löydöt on ajoitettu vuosiin 2200-1300 eaa, kun taas kra001:n ajoitus on 2336-2135 calBCE. Ei kai ole uskottavaa esittää, että kra001:n, joka vaikuttaa lähinnä ymjahtahin pääalueelta etelämmäksi ajautuneen sivuvirran edustajalta ilman sen kummempia valttikortteja kädessään, jälkeläiset vaeltaisivat pikimmiten kohti nykyistä Jekaterinburgia ja perustaisivat siellä Samus-Kizhirovon kultuuripiirin? Kaiken lisäksi väliin jää vielä Länsi-Siperian vahvasti ANE-vetoinen väestö, joka kra001:n jälkeläisten pitäisi ohittaa ilman lähempää kontaktia. Näitä ohitettavia kulttuureja ovat esim. Okunevo, jonka piirissä olevat N-haplot ovat kuten muutkin Okunevon väestö eli ANE-vetoisia.

Kun katsoo N-haplojen levinneisyyskarttaa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogrou ... o_N_(ADN-Y).PNG), luontevinta on, että N-haplot leviävät Baikalilta Objokea tai vielä sitä pohjoisempaa reittiä pitkin länteen. Ymjahtah on näille N-haploille varsin luonteva kulttuuripiiri. Ymjahtah alkaa vaikuttaa jo 3000 eaa, joten sen piirissäkin N-haploja on voinut varsin hyvin vaeltaa länteen jo 3000 eaa. Kuolan niemimaan N-haplot saavuttavat viimeistää 1350 eaa. Luonnollisesti Uralille vaeltaneet N-haplot ovat voineet omaksua aivan muita kieliä kuin Ymjahtahin N-haplot Jakutiassa. Olisi järkevää olettaa, että kantaurali liittyy näihin läntisimpiin N-miehiin.
Kristiina
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 1459
Liittynyt: 18 Maalis 2015 12:24

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Jaska » 02 Elo 2025 21:46

Kristiina kirjoitti:Kaiken lisäksi väliin jää vielä Länsi-Siperian vahvasti ANE-vetoinen väestö, joka kra001:n jälkeläisten pitäisi ohittaa ilman lähempää kontaktia. Näitä ohitettavia kulttuureja ovat esim. Okunevo, jonka piirissä olevat N-haplot ovat kuten muutkin Okunevon väestö eli ANE-vetoisia.


Ei nähtävästi osata vielä erottaa selkeästi Länsi-Siperian metsästäjäperimää/Tjumen-perimää Jakutia-perimästä. Childebayevalla 2024 BOO-näytteet voitaisiin mm. selittää toimivasti Rostovkan ROT002:n ja EHG:n sekoituksena. ROT002 puolestaan voidaan selittää hyvin monella tavalla, eli niin että Jakutia-perimän lisäksi siinä on (1) WSHG-perimää, (2) EHG-perimää, (3) aroperimää tai (4) EHG- ja aroperimää.

Myös Zengillä 2025 on toimivia mallinnuksia, joissa Tjumen- eli WSHG-perimää on mukana useimmissa uralilaisissa väestöissä Jakutia-perimän ohella. He ovat vain valinneet ajatella niin, että yksinkertaisin sekoituskaava olisi muka todennäköisin, vaikka yksinkertaisin ei tietenkään oikeasti välttämättä vastaa parhaiten todellisuutta.

Eli edelleen on aivan mahdollista, että uralinkielisten varhaisessa levittäytymisessä oli mukana myös WSHG- eli Tjumen-perimää eikä vain Jakutia-perimää (läntisten perimien ohella).
~ "Per aspera ad hominem - vaikeuksien kautta henkilökohtaisuuksiin" ~

Y-DNA: N1c1-YP1143 (Olavi Häkkinen 1620 Kuhmo? >> Juhani Häkkinen 1816 Eno)
mtDNA: H5a1e (Elina Mäkilä 1757 Kittilä >> Riitta Sassali 1843 Sodankylä)
Avatar
Jaska
Ylihärmiö
Ylihärmiö
 
Viestit: 10156
Liittynyt: 14 Helmi 2011 04:02

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja merimaa » 02 Elo 2025 21:59

Kinaporin kalifi kirjoitti:Zeng et al viittaa arkeologian osalta tähän lähteeseen, liittyen ymjahtah-anzhevskyyn: Тимощенко, А. А. Неолит и бронзовый век Канско-Рыбинской котловины. (Кемерово,1270 2013) Näyttäisi siltä, että se on hankalasti maksumuurin takana. Ehkä Merimaa onnistuu löytämään tämän jostakin?

Kyse on jostain väitöskirjasta. Löysin sivuston, missä voi lukea väitöskirjan referaatin ja sen voi myös kääntää toiselle kielelle syöttämällä sivuston osoitteen konekääntäjään.
https://cheloveknauka.com/neolit-i-bron ... -kotloviny
merimaa
Lipevä lappilainen
Lipevä lappilainen
 
Viestit: 439
Liittynyt: 17 Marras 2022 19:14

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja Kinaporin kalifi » 03 Elo 2025 08:31

merimaa kirjoitti:
Kinaporin kalifi kirjoitti:Zeng et al viittaa arkeologian osalta tähän lähteeseen, liittyen ymjahtah-anzhevskyyn: Тимощенко, А. А. Неолит и бронзовый век Канско-Рыбинской котловины. (Кемерово,1270 2013) Näyttäisi siltä, että se on hankalasti maksumuurin takana. Ehkä Merimaa onnistuu löytämään tämän jostakin?

Kyse on jostain väitöskirjasta. Löysin sivuston, missä voi lukea väitöskirjan referaatin ja sen voi myös kääntää toiselle kielelle syöttämällä sivuston osoitteen konekääntäjään.
https://cheloveknauka.com/neolit-i-bron ... -kotloviny


Kyllä, se on väitöskirja ja kiitos molemmille, siis Kristiinalle ja sinulle. Pidän itse Samus-Kizhirovoa ja siihen liittyen Keski-Uralia varsin potentiaalisena kandidaattina sekä N-haplon että uralin leviämisen osalta. Voi hyvin olla, että Anzhevsky ja Tatarka sekä niiden Jakutia_LNBA selittyy EDIT pelkästään ymjahtahilla, mutta ihan ilmeinen asia ei ilmeisesti kuitenkaan ole. Näiden viimeksi mainittujen kielikin on toistaiseksi arvoitus, ainakin siihen asti kunnes Jaska tai joku muu löytää uralista jonkin sopivan adstraatin/substraatin. Keski-Uralilta alkaen tilanne näyttäisi kuitenkin olevan jo selvä.
Avatar
Kinaporin kalifi
SuuBaltti
SuuBaltti
 
Viestit: 6628
Liittynyt: 14 Helmi 2011 19:18

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja merimaa » 12 Elo 2025 01:04

Kinaporin kalifi kirjoitti:kiitos molemmille, siis Kristiinalle ja sinulle.

Ole hyvä!

Muistatteko muuten nähneenne missään tutkimuksessa sellaista PCA-kuvaa, jossa olisi Mezhovskayan näytteitä yhdessä Srubnayan tai Sintashtan näytteiden kanssa? Allentoft et al. (2015: Extended Data Figure 1) on sellainen kuva, mutta se ei ole kovin yksityiskohtainen. Haluaisin nähdä, onko Mezhovskayan näytteillä enemmän EHG- tai WSHG-perimää kuin Srubnayan tai Sintashtan näytteillä ja ovatko Mezhovskayan näytteet samalla jatkumolla nykyisten uralilaisten näytteiden kanssa.

Olen katsonut myös admixture-kuvia ja huomasin niistä, että Zeng et al. ovat jättäneet Mezhovskayan näytteet pois artikkelinsa suuresta admixture-kuvasta. Maróti et al. (2022) ovat sen sijaan ottaneet Mezhovskayan näytteet mukaan admixture-kuvaan ja -taulukkoon (Data S5), ja taulukon perusteella voi arvioida, onko Mezhovskayan näytteillä enemmän ANE-perimää kuin Srubnayan, Sintashtan tai Andronovon näytteillä.

Laskin taulukosta Data S5C, kuinka suuri osuus eri näytteiden länsieuraasialaisesta perimästä on ANE-perimää ja vertasin eri ryhmiä keskenään. Käytin laskemiseen kaavaa, jossa jaoin ANE-perimän määrän länsieuraasialaisen perimän kokonaismäärällä: ANE / (Iran + European_Neolithic + Anatolian_Neolithic + WHG + ANE). Lopuksi laskin tulosten mediaanin ja keskiarvon niille ryhmille, joissa on useampi kuin yksi näyte. Mezhovskayan ryhmässä näytteitä on kuitenkin vain yksi, RISE523.

Mezhovskaya 55,77%
Srubnaya 46,92% (ka. 47,97%)
Srubnaya Alakul 52,24% (ka. 52,27%)
Sintashta Cis-Ural 47,63% (ka. 47,22%)
Sintashta Trans-Ural 47,08% (ka. 47,08%)
Andronovo 50,25% (ka. 53,25%)

Tulosten perusteella näyttää siltä, että Mezhovskayan näytteen länsieuraasialaisesta perimästä vähän suurempi osuus on ANE-perimää kuin muilla ryhmillä. Vain Srubnaya Alakul -ryhmässä on kaksi näytettä ja Andronovon ryhmässä yksi näyte, joilla on saman verran tai enemmän ANE-perimää. Näiden näytteiden tunnisteet ovat kzb002, kzb008 ja RISE512.

Mezhovskayan näyte on siis tulosten perusteella jotain muutakin kuin vain sekoitus Steppe_MLBA- ja Yakutia_LNBA-perimää. Ehkä se muistuttaa enemmän niitä Satygan näytteitä, joille Zeng et al. mallinsivat myös länsisiperialaisen perimäkomponentin?
merimaa
Lipevä lappilainen
Lipevä lappilainen
 
Viestit: 439
Liittynyt: 17 Marras 2022 19:14

Re: Zeng et al. 2023: Genomes associated with Uralic and Yen

ViestiKirjoittaja merimaa » 20 Elo 2025 00:02

merimaa kirjoitti:"Regarding the role of Indo-Aryans in the kingdom of Mittani, it is difficult to say anything conclusive. Cultural and linguistic contacts with Hurrians surely existed, and probably the Indo-Aryan element was perceived as highly prestigious, given that Mittanian rulers adopted Indo-Aryan throne names. Nevertheless, there can be little doubt that the dynasty was not of Indo-Aryan blood: the onomastics point to Hurrian and, except for proper names, the lexical material is almost entirely restricted to the sphere of technical terms. As Kammenhuber concluded, there is no evidence for a living Indo-Aryan speaking community in the Near East in the 15th to 14th centuries BCE, and the Aryan endoethnonym is never attested in cuneiform sources. For the time being, little more than this can be stated with relative confidence. Only the discovery of new documentary sources could shed further light on the situation."

Mitannin kuningaskunta sijaitsi nykyisen Syyrian, eteläisen Turkin ja pohjoisen Irakin alueella, ja heettien ("Hittites") kuningaskunnan pääkaupunki, Hattusa, sijaitsi sen luoteispuolella nykyisen Turkin keskiosassa. Näiltä alueilta on nyt esitelty muinais-DNA-tutkimusten tuloksia ja julkaistu niistä alla olevat tiivistelmät. Kummassakaan ei mainita merkkejä arolta tulleesta paimentolaisväestöstä, mutta nykyisen Turkin alueelta sellaisia merkkejä oli toki jo aiemmassa tutkimuksessa, "The genetic origin of the Indo-Europeans" (Lazaridis et al. 2025: 6).

Raffaela Bianco, Xiaowen Jia, Alexander Pruß et al.
Genetic make-up and demographic insights in Northern Mesopotamia: Ancient DNA analyses from the Bronze to Iron Age transition.
31st European Association of Archaeologists Annual Meeting 2025, abstract book (sivu 206).
https://www.e-a-a.org/EAA2025/EAA2025/P ... ramme.aspx

The Mesopotamian Bronze Age (approx. 3100-1180 BCE) witnessed the formation of large urban centers with increasingly complex societies which formed into states with political influence as well as a flourishing trade with neighboring cities and states. Over the time span from the Bronze Age deep into the Iron Age, the region of present-day North-Eastern Syria was part of different states and empires and was finally incorporated into the Assyrian Empire in the 9th century BCE. However, due to the scarcity of ancient DNA data from this area, the effects of these profound societal shifts on human mobility and demographics remain unknown. This is mainly due to poor molecular preservation expected from the prevalent climate in the region. Thanks to recent advancements in ancient DNA technologies, we could recover genomic data and generate genome-wide SNP data from a total of 62 individuals from four different sites: Tell Knedig (n=19), Tell Chuera (n=27), Tell Abu Hgaira (n=5), and Tell Amarna (n=11), all of them located in northern Syria and presenting the largest genetic dataset available for Bronze Age Mesopotamia so far. Population genetics results show that there is intraregional genetic continuity from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, which challenges historical accounts on great human mobility for the region.

Canpolat, K., Koptekin, D., Kazancı, D. et al.
The Population Genetic History of the Hittite Capital Hattusa.
Congress of the European Society for Evolutionary Biology 2025, abstract book (sivu 1668).
https://eseb2025.com/docs/eseb2025-abstract-book.pdf

Boğazköy (Hattuşa), the capital of the Hittite Empire (ca. 1650–1200 BCE), has been a settlement occupied for multiple millennia, with archaeological layers extending from the Chalcolithic to the Ottoman period. Located in northeastern central Anatolia, Boğazköy represents a key intersection of local and interregional dynamics in prehistoric and historic Anatolia.
Among the various populations that inhabited the site, the Hittites stand out not only for their political and cultural characteristics but also for their linguistic significance as the earliest attested speakers of the Indo-European languages. Thus, studying ancient DNA from Boğazköy may offer a unique opportunity to explore proposed hypotheses regarding the spread of Indo-European languages across Eurasia.
We analyzed genome-wide data from 21 individuals, 4 previously published and 17 newly sequenced genomes, spanning the Early Bronze Age to the Ottoman period. Using state-of-the-art population genetics methods, we examined patterns of genetic continuity, admixture, and population structure within Boğazköy and in its surrounding regions.
Preliminary results indicate genetic homogeneity across the Boğazköy individuals over time, suggesting long-term population stability despite historical and political changes. However, one individual from the Roman period stands out as a potential genetic outlier, suggesting long-distance mobility from possibly the Caucasus.
Interestingly, the genomes associated with the Hittite period do not show robust evidence of Pontic Steppe-related ancestry, despite the spread of Indo-European languages often being associated with Pontic Steppe-related migrations. This observation raises multiple possibilities: early Indo-European expansions into Anatolia may have involved cultural transmission rather than large-scale population movement, or genetic admixture may have been limited to elite classes without widespread impact on the broader population. Alternatively, Pontic Steppe ancestry may have been diluted over time through interactions with local Anatolian populations.
[...]
merimaa
Lipevä lappilainen
Lipevä lappilainen
 
Viestit: 439
Liittynyt: 17 Marras 2022 19:14

EdellinenSeuraava

Paluu Uutiset ja tutkimukset

Paikallaolijat

Käyttäjiä lukemassa tätä aluetta: Ei rekisteröityneitä käyttäjiä ja 2 vierailijaa

cron