botten-pohja?

[jussipussi]

For examp i found this journal from year 1868. According to the article in it, the North in fi is Pohja, NO is Pohjan koilliskorva and so on. That means instead of pohjoinen there are used pohja.
http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... ansuuntain

How would you translate -korva in 'Pohjan koilliskorva'? is it something like ''beside, next to'' (est 'kõrval')?

Nowadays 'korva' means ear. The old meaning might have been as you suggested, close to something, just beside one's ear. Based on the context, 'Pohjan koilliskorva' means something like 'northeast side of north'.

There is somekind of hint that 'pohjoinen' may be abbreviation. Maybe 'Pohja-osien' came to be 'pohjoinen'... http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... ispuolessa

pohja-osien = pohjois-osien = of northern parts
Pohjan pitäjä = Pohja municipality

Korva is also part of a river. Little rapids or strong stream, but usually not over the whole river. You can imagine that this kind of stream looks like ear.

But I believe that aikalainen's explanation is right in this context.

[Ziilike]

ok, thanks. korva as kõrval (smth like 'beside, nex to') seems to be right here. In estonian kõrv is similarly an ear also.

Seems like in older finnish texts there are two parralel name variants: pohja, pohjanen etc (with -a-) and pojoista, pohjoinen ... (variants with -o-). Looks like these are just different dialectical forms. In some point of time in the late 19. century or at the start of 20 cent there must have been somekind of agreeing in Finland about which word to use for North. So the pohjoinen was chosen..

Here's one old article (1836) that sais that pohjanen is a direction where the Sun like sinks into bottom of earth,
"Pohjanen, missä päiwä ikäskun maan pohjaan wajoupi" http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... term=louna
That's a source from times when Lönnrot roamed the Earth. I wonder who wrote it..

But i think that etelä and pohjoinen are not by essence a pair of opposites. Older and simpler name for etelä might have been smth like "päiwän puoli" (day's side, Sun's side). So, considering this, the right pair of opposites should be pohjoinen - päiwän puoli.
Like this there would not be this slight disagreement that etelä has more like horizontal meaning and pohjoinen (pohja) has more like a vertical meaning. Päiwän puoli is like a direction wher the Sun is up, and pohjoinen a direction where Sun is down, like sunken into earth bottom as this old article sais.

[Sigfrid]

Have u looked this Finnish National Library's digital collection (http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/)
I find that old newspapers and journals are good for searching about words - u can do some search by just putting a root of a word into searchfield and look what it gives. Like this u can find some alternative forms, also it provides a context. I've usally done this by grouping the search results from older firts to newer.

For examp i found this journal from year 1868. According to the article in it, the North in fi is Pohja, NO is Pohjan koilliskorva and so on. That means instead of pohjoinen there are used pohja.
http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... ansuuntain

How would you translate -korva in 'Pohjan koilliskorva'? is it something like ''beside, next to'' (est 'kõrval')?

There is somekind of hint that 'pohjoinen' may be abbreviation. Maybe 'Pohja-osien' came to be 'pohjoinen'... http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... ispuolessa

Pohjoinen was invented to make difference between "padan pohja" and the compass point. Isn't it obvious? Please note meanings of grammatical cases "pohjalla", "pohjassa". Where might you be when you are in the north? Pohjalla or pohjassa. "-lla" means onsomethingand "-ssa" means in something.

[jussipussi]

Pohjoinen was invented to make difference between "padan pohja" and the compass point. Isn't it obvious? Please note meanings of grammatical cases "pohjalla", "pohjassa". Where might you be when you are in the north? Pohjalla or pohjassa. "-lla" means onsomethingand "-ssa" means in something.

This sounds good explanation. Big question still is why? There is no need to do that because meaning difference between padan pohja and pohja (compass point) is so big.

[Ziilike]

Pohjoinen was invented to make difference between "padan pohja" and the compass point. Isn't it obvious?

Actually it's not so obvious. In estonian there aren't such difference and it does not matter also. This "-o-" form might have been chosen to use for North, but hard to belive someone invented it. Look this digital archive (http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/), try for ex 'pohjo'. I think it's in use as a 'bottom', at least in some texts here and there. Try other forms also.

[Sigfrid]

Pohjoinen was invented to make difference between "padan pohja" and the compass point. Isn't it obvious?

Actually it's not so obvious. In estonian there aren't such difference and it does not matter also. This "-o-" form might have been chosen to use for North, but hard to belive someone invented it. Look this digital archive (http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/), try for ex 'pohjo'. I think it's in use as a 'bottom', at least in some texts here and there. Try other forms also.

My conclusion was based on the obvious recent (150 years) tendency in Finland to add the ending "nen". Koivu - Koivunen, Lahti -Lahtinen, Niemi -Nieminen. This trend has been strong in south. This trend had not yet reached the place where I come from. There surname Niemi was still Niemi, I was never heard the form Nieminen in my childhood. The long form, in my opinion, is connected to the renewing language in Southern Finland, where also Swedish names were usually replaced by names following this trend. Particularly speaking about compass points, there is no logic here; pohjoinen, koillinen, itä, kaakko, etelä, lounas, länsi, luode. We had a trend to add the "nen" end for many diffrent reasons, but still the trend existed.

[aikalainen]

My conclusion was based on the obvious recent (150 years) tendency in Finland to add the ending "nen". Koivu - Koivunen, Lahti -Lahtinen, Niemi -Nieminen. This trend has been strong in south. This trend had not yet reached the place where I come from. There surname Niemi was still Niemi, I was never heard the form Nieminen in my childhood. The long form, in my opinion, is connected to the renewing language in Southern Finland, where also Swedish names were usually replaced by names following this trend. Particularly speaking about compass points, there is no logic here; pohjoinen, koillinen, itä, kaakko, etelä, lounas, länsi, luode. We had a trend to add the "nen" end for many diffrent reasons, but still the trend existed.

Well, 150 years ago people without a surname were asked to invent themself a surname, and the authorities recommended to put 'nen' at the end as a marker for a surname. I do not see here any connection with compass directions.

[Sigfrid]

My conclusion was based on the obvious recent (150 years) tendency in Finland to add the ending "nen". Koivu - Koivunen, Lahti -Lahtinen, Niemi -Nieminen. This trend has been strong in south. This trend had not yet reached the place where I come from. There surname Niemi was still Niemi, I was never heard the form Nieminen in my childhood. The long form, in my opinion, is connected to the renewing language in Southern Finland, where also Swedish names were usually replaced by names following this trend. Particularly speaking about compass points, there is no logic here; pohjoinen, koillinen, itä, kaakko, etelä, lounas, länsi, luode. We had a trend to add the "nen" end for many diffrent reasons, but still the trend existed.

Well, 150 years ago people without a surname were asked to invent themself a surname, and the authorities recommended to put 'nen' at the end as a marker for a surname. I do not see here any connection with compass directions.

You can read those old newspapers and see that pohjoinen was earlier pohja, meaning also bottom. So we can assume that pohjoinen is a new invention. It is not logical, it was invented. Authors (Kielitoimisto or smthg) gives all the time new recommendations. For example computer was named as "tiedin", derived in similar manner than "laskin". Some descriptive postfixes works, some not. You can't deny that pohjoinen is an equivalent for eteläinen. Some idiot simply tried to make sense with the word "pohja" and failed. It is too illogical to be from any Finnish tradition.

[Sigfrid]

Koillinen on logical, it can be derived from "koi", the sunrise. It means the compass direction with sunrise. Similarly ve say "kalainen", meaning fishy water. But what means "pohjoinen", is it "pohjallinen"?

[Ziilike]

pohjoilinennuninnunenninen :) sry, i just had to.. :)

But can u find somewhere that what time the modern Finnish cardinal directions names were settled in place? For examp i know that Estonian ones that we use today were settled in place at the year 1910. This was a result of some years of work of collecting the names from Estonian people, followed by some discussion meetings by members of "Eesti Kirjanduse Selts". The result was egreed names that were published in 1910 in "Maateaduse-sõnad" ("Geographical words").

I'm thinking that they should have put Edel where is Finnish Etelä (at S), not into SW, but now it just is there. But maybe if they collected the names from people and got dominantly that SW is edel then maybe it was a right thing to do...

[aikalainen]

My conclusion was based on the obvious recent (150 years) tendency in Finland to add the ending "nen". Koivu - Koivunen, Lahti -Lahtinen, Niemi -Nieminen. This trend has been strong in south. This trend had not yet reached the place where I come from. There surname Niemi was still Niemi, I was never heard the form Nieminen in my childhood. The long form, in my opinion, is connected to the renewing language in Southern Finland, where also Swedish names were usually replaced by names following this trend. Particularly speaking about compass points, there is no logic here; pohjoinen, koillinen, itä, kaakko, etelä, lounas, länsi, luode. We had a trend to add the "nen" end for many diffrent reasons, but still the trend existed.

Well, 150 years ago people without a surname were asked to invent themself a surname, and the authorities recommended to put 'nen' at the end as a marker for a surname. I do not see here any connection with compass directions.

You can read those old newspapers and see that pohjoinen was earlier pohja, meaning also bottom. So we can assume that pohjoinen is a new invention. It is not logical, it was invented. Authors (Kielitoimisto or smthg) gives all the time new recommendations. For example computer was named as "tiedin", derived in similar manner than "laskin". Some descriptive postfixes works, some not. You can't deny that pohjoinen is an equivalent for eteläinen. Some idiot simply tried to make sense with the word "pohja" and failed. It is too illogical to be from any Finnish tradition.

Hyvää päivää itsellesikin, ja kirvesvartta. Kirjoitin sukunimistä, mutta kommenttisi liihotteli ihan muissa asioissa. Taisit vähän taas tippaleipäillä

Tuo yhteys eteläinen-pohjoinen on se, mitä jo monta viestiä sitten toin esiin, ja siinä ratkaisun avain. Kiva huomata, että olet samalla kannalla.

Idiootti-lauseesi on sekava, voisitko hieman selventää sitä? Entä mikä on epäloogista suomalaiselle perinteelle?

[Sigfrid]

Tässähän ei ole kysymys suomalaisten perinteestä.

[Ziilike]

.Some idiot simply tried to make sense with the word "pohja" and failed. It is too illogical to be from any Finnish tradition.

That's a good etymological explanation. :) I wish that there are explantions like this in "Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat".

[Ziilike]

.Some idiot simply tried to make sense with the word "pohja" and failed. It is too illogical to be from any Finnish tradition.

That's a good etymological explanation. :) I wish that there are explantions like this in "Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat".

Some joke is ok, but i add here that if somebody wishes to post something that looks like rude words with no info, then don't, it's pointless.

[Sigfrid]

pohjoilinennuninnunenninen :) sry, i just had to.. :)

But can u find somewhere that what time the modern Finnish cardinal directions names were settled in place? For examp i know that Estonian ones that we use today were settled in place at the year 1910. This was a result of some years of work of collecting the names from Estonian people, followed by some discussion meetings by members of "Eesti Kirjanduse Selts". The result was egreed names that were published in 1910 in "Maateaduse-sõnad" ("Geographical words").

I'm thinking that they should have put Edel where is Finnish Etelä (at S), not into SW, but now it just is there. But maybe if they collected the names from people and got dominantly that SW is edel then maybe it was a right thing to do...

Etelä or edel comes from where the door of ancient huts were. Edessä, edusta, etuosa. Was that right? In Estonia the door opened to Southwest, in Finland to South. All doors.

[Sigfrid]

.Some idiot simply tried to make sense with the word "pohja" and failed. It is too illogical to be from any Finnish tradition.

That's a good etymological explanation. :) I wish that there are explantions like this in "Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat".

Some joke is ok, but i add here that if somebody wishes to post something that looks like rude words with no info, then don't, it's pointless.

We have young and old words. Young words have also etymological explanations. Young people invent new words all the time. We can't hang ourselves only to old FU-explanations. Some word inventions are idiotic, but it may be easier to admit if the word is invented by our youth, not 100-150 years ago by Swedophone Fennomans

[Pertinax]

5. postposition tapaan. Sillan korvassa (myös →←) aivan lähellä sillan päätä.
Kielitoimiston sanakirja
http://www.kielitoimistonsanakirja.fi

[jussipussi]

5. postposition tapaan. Sillan korvassa (myös →←) aivan lähellä sillan päätä.
Kielitoimiston sanakirja
http://www.kielitoimistonsanakirja.fi

Olisin kuitenkin sitä mieltä, että sillankorva tarkoittaa alunperin nimenomaan sillan pilarin tai reunan muodostamaa korvaa eli jokeen syntynyttä pyörrettä tai vastaavaa virran mutkaa. Siitä se on laventunut tuohon sanakirjan merkitykseen. Ei koskaan käytetä esimerkiksi talon korva termiä. Korvaan tarvitaan joko ruumiinosa korva tai virta. Tai runoilua, kuten ehkä koilliskorva voisi olla.

Edelleen olen sitä mieltä että pohja - pohjoinen muutos ei ole perusteltu sillä että ne olisi erottanut toisistaan. Ei ole koskaan mahdollista sekoittaa kattilan pohjaa ja ilmansuunta pohjaa. Ei ennen eikä nyt. Jos sanon että lähden pohjaan, niin tuskin kukaan kuvittelee minun menevän kattilan pohjaan. Nykyään se saattaisi hieman ihmetyttää, mutta ei kukaan sekoittaisi sitä kattilan pohjaan. Vielä vähemmän se olisi aiheuttanut sekaannusta siihen aikaan kun pohja on ollut yleisesti käytössä ilmansuunnan nimenä. Ei siis ole ollut tarvetta erottaa näitä termejä. Ne ovat eronneet asiayhteydessään aina. Sama tuon esille nousseen korvan kanssa. Ei virran osan nimeä tarvitse vaihtaa ettei se menisi sekaisin saman nimisen ruumiin osan kanssa. Eivät ne sekoitu, koska kyseessä ovat niin erilaiset kohteet.

[Ziilike]

Etelä or edel comes from where the door of ancient huts were. Edessä, edusta, etuosa. Was that right? In Estonia the door opened to Southwest, in Finland to South. All doors.

Oldest explanation for etelä i've seen so far is from this 1836 year journal
http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... term=louna :

"etelä, edessä olewa suunta, sillä wanhat kehnomilla huone'rakennuksillan laittiwat edustan eli owipuolen päiwää päin, niin paremmin asuntojansa külmilta pohjatuulilta turwaten." - can u translate, i have trouble with the middle part of this centense.

But i thing that overall it seems a reasonable explanation.
About Estonian doors, there are no much reason why these should be in other directions. In Estonia the Sun rises and sets in the same directions as in Finland, so, if one makes a door to the day's side, it's the same side and direction as in Finland. In Est the edel seems to have been used more in areas besides see, where the winds have been important part of everyday life. In inland there has been päeva pool and lõuna.

Edelleen olen sitä mieltä että pohja - pohjoinen muutos ei ole perusteltu sillä että ne olisi erottanut toisistaan. Ei ole koskaan mahdollista sekoittaa kattilan pohjaa ja ilmansuunta pohjaa. Ei ennen eikä nyt. Jos sanon että lähden pohjaan, niin tuskin kukaan kuvittelee minun menevän kattilan pohjaan. Nykyään se saattaisi hieman ihmetyttää, mutta ei kukaan sekoittaisi sitä kattilan pohjaan. Vielä vähemmän se olisi aiheuttanut sekaannusta siihen aikaan kun pohja on ollut yleisesti käytössä ilmansuunnan nimenä. Ei siis ole ollut tarvetta erottaa näitä termejä. Ne ovat eronneet asiayhteydessään aina. Sama tuon esille nousseen korvan kanssa. Ei virran osan nimeä tarvitse vaihtaa ettei se menisi sekaisin saman nimisen ruumiin osan kanssa. Eivät ne sekoitu, koska kyseessä ovat niin erilaiset kohteet.

I can agree with that. There are no problem in est in distinguishing põhi (north) from põhi (bottom), as strange as it may look..

[Sigfrid]

Etelä or edel comes from where the door of ancient huts were. Edessä, edusta, etuosa. Was that right? In Estonia the door opened to Southwest, in Finland to South. All doors.

Oldest explanation for etelä i've seen so far is from this 1836 year journal
http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... term=louna :

"etelä, edessä olewa suunta, sillä wanhat kehnomilla huone'rakennuksillan laittiwat edustan eli owipuolen päiwää päin, niin paremmin asuntojansa külmilta pohjatuulilta turwaten." - can u translate, i have trouble with the middle part of this centense.

"South, the direction in the front area, because old folk with their poorer houses placed the front, in other words the door side, toward sun to protect houses from northern winds."

I can agree with that. There are no problem in est in distinguishing põhi (north) from põhi (bottom), as strange as it may look..

In Estonia you have not Pohjanmaa