botten-pohja?

[Ziilike]

In sami language north is davvi (if i'm correct; it looks like it's realated to estonian talv or finnis talvi).

Though it may not look much like it, davvi is rather related to Es. süva / Fi. syvä. ('Winter' is instead dálvi.) The naming scheme here is roughly the same: 'north' = 'deep', 'under'.

This is a good pointout here. So that the sami people do have after all something similar for their north directin, althought the similarity is not in how the word looks, but what it means. Nice.

[jussipussi]

Swedish "botten" is in Finnish "pohja", in English "bottom". "Pohjoinen" is in Swedish "nord", in English "north". The idea that Finnish "pohjoinen" comes from the opposite interior side of the hut door proves only that "pohjoinen" could be derived from "pohja" as descripted earlier, which actually is in Finnish "perä". It doesn't prove that "pohja" (botten) means "pohjoinen" (nord).

At least there seems to be a late tendency in Finnish to inject the meaning "pohjoinen" into "pohja". Or do you deny even that?

Nope. That tendency is hard as a rock, if you find the meaning

One idea came to my mind. Also nowadays we build our houses so that we can use southern side of yard as easy as possible. Thats the side where sun shines and its nice to be and to do work we have.

In a northern part of fennosskandia and mountains it is different thing. Thats the area where Sami people lives. There a door have to be against SW or west. Wind is blowing nearly always from there. And because of that door side is free from snow. Other sides of hut (kammi, kota, kämppä) can be under snow to the roof.

Maybe that is the reason why their point of compass is about 90 degrees turned compared to Finnish language.

And if it is so, its easier to understand perä and pohja move on to refer to compass point.

Niin ja voin selittää saman suomeksi jos ajatus ei tankerosta selviä.

[jussipussi]

If that what i wrote before is right then it makes sence with lulli=lounas, boassu= pohjoinen, pohja, perä, nuortti=north, loan from german.

[Ziilike]

One idea came to my mind. Also nowadays we build our houses so that we can use southern side of yard as easy as possible. Thats the side where sun shines and its nice to be and to do work we have.

In a northern part of fennosskandia and mountains it is different thing. Thats the area where Sami people lives. There a door have to be against SW or west. Wind is blowing nearly always from there. And because of that door side is free from snow. Other sides of hut (kammi, kota, kämppä) can be under snow to the roof.

Maybe that is the reason why their point of compass is about 90 degrees turned compared to Finnish language.

And if it is so, its easier to understand perä and pohja move on to refer to compass point.

Niin ja voin selittää saman suomeksi jos ajatus ei tankerosta selviä.

There are some logic in your suggestion, but the turning of their point of compass is explained to come from that the samis oriented themselves according to coast (sea and inland). Depending on where you are in the Scandinavian peninsula, the davvi (or direction to the sea) may be anywhere from west to east (here's an articel about semantics of sami directions names: http://finnugor.arts.unideb.hu/fud/fud2 ... haniko.pdf - in hungarian)

[Sigfrid]

There are maybe 600 place names ending "pohja" and 800 ending "perä". I promise to eat my hat if someone succeeds in proving that the ending "pohja" here on this map means north.

Only 200 first names shown on maps because of limitations in the service.

[jussipussi]

One idea came to my mind. Also nowadays we build our houses so that we can use southern side of yard as easy as possible. Thats the side where sun shines and its nice to be and to do work we have.

In a northern part of fennosskandia and mountains it is different thing. Thats the area where Sami people lives. There a door have to be against SW or west. Wind is blowing nearly always from there. And because of that door side is free from snow. Other sides of hut (kammi, kota, kämppä) can be under snow to the roof.

Maybe that is the reason why their point of compass is about 90 degrees turned compared to Finnish language.

And if it is so, its easier to understand perä and pohja move on to refer to compass point.

Niin ja voin selittää saman suomeksi jos ajatus ei tankerosta selviä.

There are some logic in your suggestion, but the turning of their point of compass is explained to come from that the samis oriented themselves according to coast (sea and inland). Depending on where you are in the Scandinavian peninsula, the davvi (or direction to the sea) may be anywhere from west to east (here's an articel about semantics of sami directions names: http://finnugor.arts.unideb.hu/fud/fud2 ... haniko.pdf - in hungarian)

I know that sea and coast theory. There is no sence in my opinion. And you explained why. There is no logic there.

[Ziilike]

In sami language north is davvi (if i'm correct; it looks like it's realated to estonian talv or finnis talvi).

Though it may not look much like it, davvi is rather related to Es. süva / Fi. syvä. ('Winter' is instead dálvi.) The naming scheme here is roughly the same: 'north' = 'deep', 'under'.

This is a good pointout here. So that the sami people do have after all something similar for their north directin, althought the similarity is not in how the word looks, but what it means. Nice.

But does it really means that the samis and finnic peoples have named their north direction after one and the same thing in their environment/life they encountered? Only they used a different word for it? If that's so then the sami hut explanation can't be right and it looks like põhi (pohjoinen) is more related to the sea..

some dictionary gives:
dâvve -the water far out, the deep water, the deep part of a river, the part near the middle of the fjord; north, northern, northerly (http://kaino.kotus.fi/algu/index.php?t= ... sana=davvi)

[jussipussi]

Sigfrid, you talk little bit off, as always
Pohja, perä meanig was first backside of a room or house, big maybe there. Perä and pohja means mostly and first bottom and backside and that is why your maps is full off pohja-names without meanig north.

[Ziilike]

There are maybe 600 place names ending "pohja" and 800 ending "perä". I promise to eat my hat if someone succeeds in proving that the ending "pohja" here on this map means north.

In estonian there are no different forms for põhi meaning bottom or põhi meaning north. In estonian põhi means two things at once, there are not something like in finnish that pohjoinen means north and pohja means bottom. So, in estonian the meaning of põhi depends on context.

[Ziilike]

There are maybe 600 place names ending "pohja" and 800 ending "perä". I promise to eat my hat if someone succeeds in proving that the ending "pohja" here on this map means north.

In estonian there are no different forms for põhi meaning bottom or põhi meaning north. In estonian põhi means two things at once, there are not something like in finnish that pohjoinen means north and pohja means bottom. So, in estonian the meaning of põhi depends on context.

Althought intresting distribution maps. These are suggesting that word 'pohja' may have came to Finland from somewhere south and east.

[Sigfrid]

Sigfrid, you talk little bit off, as always
Pohja, perä meanig was first backside of a room or house, big maybe there. Perä and pohja means mostly and first bottom and backside and that is why your maps is full off pohja-names without meanig north.

What have tried to explain, obviously with no success, is that "pohja" means a position being down below from the observer and "perä" means background. This is the Finnish meaning, but I know that in some Finnish dialects the meaning can be different. However, people give names using their own sense and it depends on the history. People in the west don't understand if you judge saltless food being "tuima", and conversely in the east. If you can prove that "tuima" means saltless or salty, I agree speaking a bit off. Linguistics is not maths, it is a humanistic science and there is no global truths. Saying something else is politics

So we came here after trying to make sense of the word "pohja" in certain place names. You can ask the meaning from me, from Estonians, from Karelians, from Komis etc., and have different answers. The correct answer is available only from people who invented it. Going backwards to Ural mountains doesn't give the answer.

[Sigfrid]

There are maybe 600 place names ending "pohja" and 800 ending "perä". I promise to eat my hat if someone succeeds in proving that the ending "pohja" here on this map means north.

In estonian there are no different forms for põhi meaning bottom or põhi meaning north. In estonian põhi means two things at once, there are not something like in finnish that pohjoinen means north and pohja means bottom. So, in estonian the meaning of põhi depends on context.

Althought intresting distribution maps. These are suggesting that word 'pohja' may have came to Finland from somewhere south and east.

It might be true. But in my opinion the meaning of "pohja" is changed of the origin inside new settlements and the new meaning is comparable to "perä", thus exists in place names. It is nothing new, cultural and linguistic changes are unavoidable.

[Ziilike]

You can ask the meaning from me, from Estonians, from Karelians, from Komis etc., and have different answers. The correct answer is available only from people who invented it. Going backwards to Ural mountains doesn't give the answer.

a little remark here that you can't ask from Komis, cause they don't have similar word (if to believe Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat http://eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=p%C3%B5hi&F=M&C06=et)

[jussipussi]

Ok, I agree, Sigfrid. It depends on who you are asking from. Alltough there is nothing wrong in etymology that compass points in Finnish and Sami are from name of hut sides at least pohjoinen and nuortti, nuorta.

[Ziilike]

What have tried to explain, obviously with no success, is that "pohja" means a position being down below from the observer and "perä" means background

In estonian it's also like that - pera relates to something horizontal and põhi relates to something that is vertically lower, downwards.

[Sigfrid]

"Huima" is one of those weird words. Somewhere in the east is means mad, loony etc, but in many western places it is unknown, the closest phrasing is "huimata", meaning dizzy. In Estonia according to the online dictionary:

- huima - metsik
- huimata - pead pööritama panna

We see that "huima" has a local meaning in Finland and it doesn't exist in Estonia, if "metsik" is a perfect hit.

If we assume that all similar Finnish words have same origin it is obvious that hundreds words have changed meanings. Dialects don't reflect only pronouncing, but also many different meanings. Then the point here is, what is the goal of language planning (I mentioned it already in the beginning).

[Ziilike]

Alltough there is nothing wrong in etymology that compass points in Finnish and Sami are from name of hut sides at least pohjoinen and nuortti, nuorta.

nuortti, nuorta are loans from germanic languages (etymologically meaning 'left'). Sami north is davvi , with a meaning syvä - that is by meaning somewhat as same as 'pohja' (bottom).
And now tell that there's nothing wrong in the etymology that compass points in Finnish and Sami are from name of hut sides

[Ziilike]

"Huima" is one of those weird words. Somewhere in the east is means mad, loony etc, but in many western places it is unknown, the closest phrasing is "huimata", meaning dizzy. In Estonia according to the online dictionary:

- huima - metsik
- huimata - pead pööritama panna

We see that "huima" has a local meaning in Finland and it doesn't exist in Estonia, if "metsik" is a perfect hit.

If we assume that all similar Finnish words have same origin it is obvious that hundreds words have changed meanings. Dialects don't reflect only pronouncing, but also many different meanings. Then the point here is, what is the goal of language planning (I mentioned it already in the beginning).

think the closest estonian word to huimata (by meaning and by sound) is uimane (dizzy, sleepy).
I don't understand what you mean by language planning, but that's true that a words of same sounding may change meaning but still sound similar. (as estonian lõuna (south) and finnish lounas (southwest)). It confuses people :)

[Ziilike]

"Huima" is one of those weird words. Somewhere in the east is means mad, loony etc, but in many western places it is unknown, the closest phrasing is "huimata", meaning dizzy. In Estonia according to the online dictionary:

- huima - metsik
- huimata - pead pööritama panna

i don't know what dictionary u use but finnish huima means in estonian clearly uim : uima : uima 'joobumus,  joovastus; joove' (http://eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=uim&F=M&C06=et

[Sigfrid]

"Huima" is one of those weird words. Somewhere in the east is means mad, loony etc, but in many western places it is unknown, the closest phrasing is "huimata", meaning dizzy. In Estonia according to the online dictionary:

- huima - metsik
- huimata - pead pööritama panna

We see that "huima" has a local meaning in Finland and it doesn't exist in Estonia, if "metsik" is a perfect hit.

If we assume that all similar Finnish words have same origin it is obvious that hundreds words have changed meanings. Dialects don't reflect only pronouncing, but also many different meanings. Then the point here is, what is the goal of language planning (I mentioned it already in the beginning).

think the closest estonian word to huimata (by meaning and by sound) is uimane (dizzy, sleepy).
I don't understand what you mean by language planning, but that's true that a words of same sounding may change meaning but still sound similar. (as estonian lõuna (south) and finnish lounas (southwest)). It confuses people :)

Language planning is a term for a willful and goal-directed language maintaining. One goal is one meaning of words, another dispel loan words, invent new word for new abstracts. Pronouncing standards, wrtiting standards etc. Decisions to which direction to change language.