Muinainen Suomi

Hi!

I'm estonian and i really search for the etymological origins of cardinal directions names (primary the estonian ones). For about 2 years of occasional hobby-researche i've worked throught almost all the material in estonian i could find, so, i've exhausted my sources in estonian but the etymologies are still unclear to me. I have a blog post that sums all my findings and thoughts about the etymologies (you can have a look but it's in estonian: http://must-valge.blogspot.com.ee/2014/ ... olust.html).

i've started to look for matherial in other familiar languages, finnish and other finno-ugrig languages. To keep it short, in this thread i would like to focus on a question about word 'pohjoinen' ('põhi' in est) and it's relation to germanic. I had a feeling that it might come from a germanic languages, in particular from swedish 'botten' or old norse 'botn'. Unfortunately i'm bad at finnish and in swedish languages, so if anyone here could help to shed a light on it a bit, i would appreciate. Is it possible that the word 'pohjoinen' (or 'põhi') came from the name of the Gulf of Botnia? (botn-pohjoinen-põhi?) So that the 'pohjanmaa' was a land that surrounded the Gulf of Botnia (swedish 'botniska viken'), hence the direction to it came to be 'pohjoinen'? Also there is a strange double use of words with same meaning (peräpohjoinen, norrbotten).

Suurtänu, mielenkiintoinen blogi. I'll have a proper look at your ideas in the very near future.

Tere!
An interesting survey; I may need to read this closer. For now though:

Ziilike kirjoitti:Is it possible that the word 'pohjoinen' (or 'põhi') came from the name of the Gulf of Botnia? (botn-pohjoinen-põhi?) So that the 'pohjanmaa' was a land that surrounded the Gulf of Botnia (swedish 'botniska viken'), hence the direction to it came to be 'pohjoinen'?

This seems unlikely. Both words might have similar initial sounds (po / bo), but nothing after that matches. The development 'bottom' > 'north' is normally considered to have come from the traditional habit of building dwellings so that their entrance opens to the south (therefore also edel / etelä from ede / eteen), and hence their rear part, or the 'bottom', points to the north.

Pohjanmaa is likely simply named for being in the north (and Scandinavian Botten would then be a calque of this). I do not see how it would otherwise be at the "bottom" of anything.

Also, the word you read as ‹pôhl› is probably instead ‹pôhí› (having ‹i› with an acute accent); the letter is slighty smudged, but you can still see in the middle a serif extending to the left, which would not be expected to happen in an "l". As far as I know, the Finnic term for 'North' does not occur in any dialect or variety as anything resembling **pohl-.

The Estonian direction names based on pool 'side' seem to be only accidentally similar: they are normally defined with respect to the North-South axis, which itself would need to be treated as primary (unlike the Indo-European examples, that instead take the West-East axis as primary)

Ziilike kirjoitti:Also there is a strange double use of words with same meaning (peräpohjoinen, norrbotten).

This is probably indeed a calque in either direction, but note that the word order differs between Finnish and Swedish: the corresponding words are perä = botten = 'pära' and pohjoinen = norr = 'põhi'.

However, Finnish "pohjoismaat" or Pohjola is in Estonian Põhjamaad, not põhimaad. Notice also that in many cases Finns have lost "d", which is due to language reforms rather than due any natural way, Põhjamaad is somewhat closer the Finnish meaning that "põhi". I have seen this before; some inflected forms in Estonian become closer Finnish. So my outcome has been that the root in many cases has diverged in Baltic Finnic languages from the original form, but inflected forms can still be closer each other because proper nouns and grammatical cases fix to the root.

Tervitused! Hei-hei! Thanks for your replies!

I feel i must read your posts a bit carefully due to a little language barrier, in order do not possibly misunderstand something.

I try to sum shortly my searches about this word (põhi or pohjoinen in finnish) and then i go throught the replies (thanks again for thinking along).

At first i was quite happy with the idea that estonian (and also finnish) word 'põhi' (pohjoinen) may have came from the name of a star "Põhjanael" (Pohjannaula), as Põhjanael (North star) is always in one place in the sky and the other stars roll around it. So i thought that as in older times people imagined sky as something dome-shaped or like an upside-down bowl (illustrating picture: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohjannau ... nnaula.jpg ), so, because of that and because the North star is like in a bottom of this upside down bowl-shaped sky, the name of the cardinal point 'põhi' may have come from this mythological worldwiev - as a direction to the North star (põhjanel), as a direction to the bottom of this skybowl. This could nicely relate this two meanings of the word 'põhi', as it means 'north' an also a 'bottom' (of something) at same time.

i got stuck with this idea for a while, later i also found out that this idea had been previously proposed by one estonian astronomy guy, Jakob Hurt, already in the 1899 (in my blog i've copy-pasted the exerpt from his 'Eesti astronomia' where he sums this explanation). But now i think that because he was an astronomer, he was affected by his field of study and his conclusion about the etymology of the word 'põhi' is his subjective not objective conclusion. If u are an astronomer ofcourse u see the world throught the astronomy prism... Althought it's a nice and maybe even a genius explanation that blends beautifully with mythology (Magic mill, Sampo and stuff).

Then i found some finnish sources about sami people and their hut (as user Pystynen mentiones this explanation). This lead to another heureca moment that finnish pohjoinen/etelä is essentially a simple pair of opposites (like black and white, warm and cold and so on). In estonian language this pairing is not so easy to see, as we say for some unknown reason lõuna where finns say etelä. In estonian it must be from really old times as an earliest mentioning comes from 17. century german-estonian language studybook where süden corresponded to lõuna. It does not seem to apply in this case but just for mentioning that these older times german language men made mistakes, especially when trying to write down words as how they heard them. Maybe even invented words (in a bad sense ofcourse :).
So, i think that in finnish language this system of opposites or pairing has been preserved more clearly. I thought that the direction's name põhi (pohjoinen) may be named after etelä, so that etelä is maybe older or somehow more significant than pohjoinen.

Pystynen kirjoitti:

Ziilike kirjoitti:Is it possible that the word 'pohjoinen' (or 'põhi') came from the name of the Gulf of Botnia? (botn-pohjoinen-põhi?) So that the 'pohjanmaa' was a land that surrounded the Gulf of Botnia (swedish 'botniska viken'), hence the direction to it came to be 'pohjoinen'?

This seems unlikely. Both words might have similar initial sounds (po / bo), but nothing after that matches. The development 'bottom' > 'north' is normally considered to have come from the traditional habit of building dwellings so that their entrance opens to the south (therefore also edel / etelä from ede / eteen), and hence their rear part, or the 'bottom', points to the north.

This sami hut thing is logical and reasonable explanation.

But how come that if estonian an finnish directoin's name põhi (pohjoinen) are etymologically related to sami words boaššu or posio then the samis aren't useing something similar to their own name for north direction? In sami language north is davvi (if i'm correct; it looks like it's realated to estonian talv or finnis talvi). Or do sami people have something similar to põhi to name their north direction but it's not used widely or widely known?

Sami words boaššu or posio are quite different from finnis or estonian pohjoinen and põhi. Sami words have this '-šš-' or '-s-' what does not appear in our languages (at least not in estonian). Are the word posio also commoly used in finnish language, or maybe by some older people or regionally? Can someone put these words in different inflected forms? Maybe this shows something..

I could hypothetically relate these sami words to old norse or germanic languages somehow like that that in the swedish botten or old norse botn the -tt- or -t- is changed into -šš- or -s- in sami boaššu and posio. This is a guess ofcoures, but it seems like in finnougric languages sometimes t is prone to change into s. Meaning that it has been changed into softer letter. (further development may have been the changeing of s into h, as in põhi or in pohjoinen). I don't know... could it be?
There are some language rules of how letters are prone to chane, for example "ph" can change to "f"; or "b" can change to "v". In estoninan "o" seems to be prone to change into "õ", (campare 'pohjoinen' and 'põhi')...

Also i have'nt found in other finno-ugric languages (komi-permi..) that there are a similar words to põhi or pohjoinen. Could anybody knows to suggest something?
That's why i'm thinkin this word must have been loaned somehow from germanic languages, possibly at the contact of germanic and finnougric peoples, long time ago.

Pystynen kirjoitti:Pohjanmaa is likely simply named for being in the north (and Scandinavian Botten would then be a calque of this). I do not see how it would otherwise be at the "bottom" of anything.

It really might be a simpel calque, in either way, but if it's a calque or translation it seems to be more in that way that a swedish word (or old norse) is translated into finnish. According to the etymology of swedish word botten it means also a bay. But unfortunately i'm even more bad at swedish than in finnish (at least 10x maybe) so i don't understand the context of how or why it it should mean a bay. ok, a bay is somehow like a bottom of a bag...But the intuitive understanding remains distant. I asked one of my swedish langage speaking friend about this name of Botnia bay, a swedish bottenviken - she said that basically it consists of two times the word 'bay'.

In older times (17. or 18. century) in Finland and Sweden there existed something called in finnish läänit (estonian läänid or maakonnad) that were located around the Gulf of Botnia. There was an articel (in finnish) about it (pages 7-8, "Miksi olemme tällaisia kuin oleme" https://www.katterno.fi/assets/Publikat ... FIlres.pdf you can read, i didn't understood all but i'll try more). As i understood on the Swedish side there was a Wästerbotten and on the Finnish side Pohjanmaa. So I thought that if sami people does not use for their north direction something similar word as are estonian and finnish põhi and pohjoinen, then it might be that the "põhi" or "pohjoinen" was actually not a direction to somewhere at the end of the world, but was an actual place located where these Wästerbotten and Pohjanmaa läänit were. I would not be surprised if sami people living in far north have some word for south direction that sounds similar to põhi or pohjoinen :)

However, i'm trying to find something that disproves or supports this hypothesis that botten, pohjoinen and põhi are somehow etymologically related.

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Sigfrid kirjoitti:However, Finnish "pohjoismaat" or Pohjola is in Estonian Põhjamaad, not põhimaad. Notice also that in many cases Finns have lost "d"

Could you explain - does "d" has been lost from finnish words pohjoismaat, Pohjola or pohjoinen and if so then from where in the word it has been lost/changed?
In estoian põhja- is a genitive form (whom?), põhi is nominative (what?). But this is probably true that putting the word in different inflected forms may give something about the etymology of that word.

"d" has been a problematic consonant for Finns Inside the word body it usually replaced by "r" (in western dialects) or simply missed (in eastern dialects) But because at end of the word it means plural it can't be missed without losing plural. So it is substituted by "t". This is probably only my theory, but I see two evidences supporting it. First in old texts written usually by Swedish speaking clerks or priests (they spoke also Finnish, but we had not yet rules in writing Finnish) used "d" also in Finnish translations. So my conclusion is that those clerks tried to follow the pronunciation they heard. Secondly, it looks like Estonian has preserved "d". Summa summarum, "d" has been common in Finnish and disappeared later and substituted in different ways, not only in one way, which could have meant that we never had "d".
I can imagine clerks hearing a sentece "moned asjad saab selvemmäks", in modern Finnish "monet asiat saa selvemmäksi". Notice also that "b" is substituted or missed in Finnish because the linguistic reform was based on certain Finnish dialects. Still can be said "monet asiat saapi selvemmäksi", where "b" is substituted by "p" in the word "saapi".


About Pohjanmaa, pohjalainen (pohjamaalane in Estonian?). In Finnish Pohjan is a genitive, "n" mean genitive. We see that Estonian "pohja" and Finnish "pohjan" means exactly the same.

More about the meaning of Pohjanmaa. Most historians in Finland interpret that "pohja" in this case comes from "being on the bottom". It is understood to be a geographical view, not meaning north. Obviously the reason is our common history with Sweden, where the western side of "Botniska viken" is called Västerbotten and the eastern side is called Österbotten. Remember that in Swedish "north" is "Nord" and "bottom" is " botten". In Sweden there is, as in Scotland, high lands and low lands. I don't know how they called Swedish high lands, but it is reasonable to assume that their low lands were called "botten". In Finland we have not mountains, but Pohjanmaa/Österbotten is really low, even lower than its Swedish counterpart. So I understand the outcome of many Finnish historians. There was at first, before crusades, Swedish "Botten", later Västerbotten and Österbotten. Österbotten, locating in Finland, was translated to Pohjanmaa, where "pohja" comes from Swedish " botten". In Finnish "pohja" MEANS bottom, not north.

About Estonina lõuna. In Finnish lounas means the compass point between south and west.

Pohjantähti (Põhjanael) at bottom is somewhat hard to imagine, but Perämeri is certainly a bottom. Where are the areas which are "Pohjan perillä"?

I do not know if this is relevant or not, but in Laihia (in Pohjanmaa) there was early on a house named "Bodde" (Swedish) which in Finnish became "Poti" and hence came "Potila" (house/place of Poti). In Germany, "Bodden" has the meaning of "bay". https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/-wik

Interesting is Pohja, located in SW Finland, which has Swedish name "Pojo"(!?) https://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohja_vald

Eskous kirjoitti:Pohjantähti (Põhjanael) at bottom is somewhat hard to imagine, but Perämeri is certainly a bottom. Where are the areas which are "Pohjan perillä"?

When Johan Calamnius, who belonged himself to an old Ostrobothnian family, wrote a book "Muinais-tiedustuksia Pohjanperiltä" he visited Tornio, Kemi, Ii, Oulu, Muhos, Liminka, Siikajoki and the southernmost place was Saloinen. This happened 150 years ago. The context is clear, he was speaking about a specific geographic place where he visited and Pohjanperä was a proper moun. Then we can call almost any place locating to the north of us "pohjan perä" because, as usual in spoken language, the meaning changes all the time.

Sigfrid kirjoitti:"d" has been a problematic consonant for Finns ... Secondly, it looks like Estonian has preserved "d". Summa summarum, "d" has been common in Finnish and disappeared later and substituted in different ways, not only in one way, which could have meant that we never had "d".

I am no specialist of phonology of any kind, but it seems there was no "d" in the phonology in Late Proto Finnic language nor in modern (vernacular) Finnish or Estonian speech. It seems that the letter "d" has emerged in our standard languagues for separate reasons.

Written Finnish language was first generated in 16th century. Those days, "d" was chosen to mark weaker grade (in opposition to t) in case declension.
http://sokl.uef.fi/aineistot/aidinkieli/murteet/d-vastin.html
http://www.helsinki.fi/vvks/aanne-_ja_muoto-oppi/astevaihtelusta/index.html

Written Estonian has evolved using different traditions. Estonian language has also been much more innovative. In result, Estonian language has meet some problems in ortography that Finnish language has not (yet) faced. One of them is representing hree different distinctive (vocal and) consonant lengths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_phonology chapter Suprasegmental length

All stressed long syllables can possess a suprasegmental length feature. When a syllable has this feature, any long vowel or diphthong in the syllable is lengthened further, as is any long consonant or consonant cluster at the end of that syllable. A long syllable without suprasegmental length is termed "long", "half-long", "light" or "length II" and is denoted in IPA as ⟨ˑ⟩ or ⟨ː⟩. A long syllable with suprasegmental length is termed "overlong", "long", "heavy" or "length III", denoted in IPA as ⟨ː⟩ or ⟨ːː⟩. For consistency, this article employs the terms "half-long" and "overlong" and uses ⟨ː⟩ and ⟨ːː⟩, respectively, to denote them.

Both the regular short-long distinction and the suprasegmental length are distinctive, so that Estonian effectively has three distinctive vowel and consonant lengths, the distinction between the second and third length levels being at a level larger than the phoneme, such as the syllable or the foot.[6] In addition to realizing greater phonetic duration, overlength in modern Estonian involves a pitch distinction where falling pitch is realized in syllables that are overlong and level pitch is realized in syllables that are short or long.[7]

The suprasegmental length is not indicated in the standard orthography except for the plosives for which a single voiceless letter represents a half-long consonant while a double voiceless letter represents an overlong consonant. There are many minimal pairs and also some minimal triplets which differ only by length

Mocadam, I was not referring to any proto language, but to the Finnish language spoken before the new standard language. The topic was "botten-pohja" and it has nothing to do with proto languages. It is, as I already proved, a complex issue engaged with the Swedish influence in Finland, complex even for Finns speaking their mother language. Don't push here proto languages and other thousands years old questions or later consonant gradations and such questions as is d really d and how people pronounced it before written languages. The modern Finnish standard language was created only 150 years ago.

5.1 Uusi vuosisata mullistaa suomen kielen

Vanhan kirjasuomen lähes kolmesataa vuotta kestänyt kausi oli kirjakielen historiassa hidasta kehitystä. Suomalaisilla oli kyllä samat oikeudet kuin muilla Ruotsin kuninkaan alamaisilla, mutta ruotsalaisia oli kaksi kertaa niin paljon kuin suomalaisia, ja pääkaupungissa ja yleensä maan keskeisillä paikoilla asui suhteellisen vähän suomenkielistä väestöä. Ruotsi oli hallinnon, akatemian ja koulujen kieli. Aika ajoin suomalaiset jopa valittivat, etteivät virkamiehet edes ymmärtäneet suomea.

Suomi joutui 1700-luvulla kahdesti venäläisten valtaan, mikä sai papiston ja virkamiehet pakenemaan Ruotsiin. Monet jäivät emämaahan pysyvästi, ja paluumuuttajat taas olivat Ruotsissa vietettyjen vuosien aikana ruotsalaistuneet. Ruotsin vallan aikana suomalaisten kansallistunteen ja äidinkielen kehitystä jarruttivat ennen kaikkea surkeat olot ja onnettomat tapahtumat, ei suinkaan Ruotsin viranomaisten tietoinen painostus.

Suomen kirjakieli syntyi 1500-luvulla. Seuraavalla vuosisadalla kehitettiin lähinnä oikeinkirjoitusjärjestelmää ja vakiinnutettiin suomen kielen käyttö kirjallisiin tarkoituksiin. 1700-luvulla ortografian kehittäminen jatkui mm. Antti Lizeliuksen toimittamissa kahdessa uudessa raamatunsuomennoksessa. Suomen kieli joutui myös ensi kertaa todellisen tieteellisen tutkimuksen kohteeksi. Alettiin tajuta kansanperinteen merkitys, ja keräilytoiminta sai alkunsa.

Uusi vuosisata, 1800-luku, merkitsi kirjakielen kehitykselle enemmän kuin edelliset vuosisadat yhteensä. Kansanrunouden kerääminen ja tutkiminen jatkui entistä vilkkaampana. Kirjakieli sai runsaasti vaikutteita itäisistä murteista. Alkoi myös kielen normittaminen ja sen tietoinen kehittäminen ruotsin vertaiseksi kulttuurikieleksi. Vuosisadan loppupuolella käynnistyi myös varsinainen kielenhuolto.

http://www.helsinki.fi/vvks/katsaus_van ... index.html

Here is an interesting article about "Suupohja". I see here nothing pointing out to north. Typically, two old fennomans and Finnish language innovators, Ahlqvist and Koskinen (Forsman), debated about if the name Suupohja can be acceptable, both sirs spoke Swedish as the first language. The idea was to create a unique FU-language without Swedish influence. "Pohja" in this context has very narrow and original meaning.

http://suupohja.fi/mika-ihmeen-suupohja/

Zii, not related to the topic but: Irboska is located by the lake Möla (unluckily I don't have the proper ö-font in the cellphone). How would you translate the name of the lake? Are you aware other möla-, mölo- type of names in the area?

Kinaporin kalifi kirjoitti:Zii, not related to the topic but: Irboska is located by the lake Möla (unluckily I don't have the proper ö-font in the cellphone). How would you translate the name of the lake? Are you aware other möla-, mölo- type of names in the area?

Hei! Yes you can ask me about estonian names-words, however it is out of topic in this thread...
'Mõla' sounds to me exactli as paddle or oar. This word is not so often as it's synoyme aer. But i think it can't be the explanation. Probably it's a mutated russian word "малый" (malõi), which means little or lesser. But i'm not 100% sure. Also look how much is changed Irboska - in russian Изборск (isporsk). Seto people are in close contact with russians, so there are many russian loans in seto language.

If Mõla gomes from russian, meaning little, then there should be some place near Mõla that is related to it but bigger. Like in Estonia there are lakes Udriku Suurjärv and Udriku Väikejärv (Udriku's Biglake and Udriku's Littlelake).

Shortly about "Pohjanperä". "Pohja" is in English bottom and "perä" the most distant place from the observer.

Sigfrid kirjoitti:Here is an interesting article about "Suupohja". I see here nothing pointing out to north. Typically, two old fennomans and Finnish language innovators, Ahlqvist and Koskinen (Forsman), debated about if the name Suupohja can be acceptable, both sirs spoke Swedish as the first language. The idea was to create a unique FU-language without Swedish influence. "Pohja" in this context has very narrow and original meaning.

http://suupohja.fi/mika-ihmeen-suupohja/

How do the "Pohja" in this context has a very narrow and original meaning?
Maybe the "Suupohja" is related by it's meaning to the part of Botnian bay called in finnish "Merenkurkku". So that the Suupohja is a mouth to the pohja, as 'suu' means mouth or opening of some sort. So if going through Suupohja one can end up in pohjoinen. In estonian i would say "põhja suue". But Suupohja also sounds like a bottom of a mouth if i'm not changeing the order of words suu and pohja...

Sigfrid kirjoitti:Shortly about "Pohjanperä". "Pohja" is in English bottom and "perä" the most distant place from the observer.

finnish perä is in estonian pära (pera), althought the meaning could be slightly different in a way it's almost unnoticeable. In estonian pära means back part, end (for examp - end of a sleepingbag - magamiskoti pära), distant part;
supi pära - end of a soup in bowl. Põhja pära in this soup context means soup end in a bottom of a bowl.
I think it's a same as in finnish..

also it means opening of something, a mouth of something, like suue, but primarly it means a back part (of something).

"Pohjanperä" sound like you can't go no more north than this, a very end of a north (or põhi)

Ziilike kirjoitti:

Kinaporin kalifi kirjoitti:Zii, not related to the topic but: Irboska is located by the lake Möla (unluckily I don't have the proper ö-font in the cellphone). How would you translate the name of the lake? Are you aware other möla-, mölo- type of names in the area?

Hei! Yes you can ask me about estonian names-words, however it is out of topic in this thread...
'Mõla' sounds to me exactli as paddle or oar. This word is not so often as it's synoyme aer. But i think it can't be the explanation. Probably it's a mutated russian word "малый" (malõi), which means little or lesser. But i'm not 100% sure. Also look how much is changed Irboska - in russian Изборск (isporsk). Seto people are in close contact with russians, so there are many russian loans in seto language.

If Mõla gomes from russian, meaning little, then there should be some place near Mõla that is related to it but bigger. Like in Estonia there are lakes Udriku Suurjärv and Udriku Väikejärv (Udriku's Biglake and Udriku's Littlelake).

How about Baltic *mala, "shore", possibly also related to Merya molo, "passage, perehod" type of names?

Yeah, in Estonian it means "the northernmost place", in Finnish "the end of Pohja", where "Pohja" is a proper noun based on "pohja" (bottom) and describes seasides of the Bothnian Bay. Those places where Johan Calamnius (standing for kalajokelainen, latinized form) are far from to be northernmost places in Finland. You can continue walking 500 km more to reach the Finnish north.

Ziilike kirjoitti:

Sigfrid kirjoitti:Here is an interesting article about "Suupohja". I see here nothing pointing out to north. Typically, two old fennomans and Finnish language innovators, Ahlqvist and Koskinen (Forsman), debated about if the name Suupohja can be acceptable, both sirs spoke Swedish as the first language. The idea was to create a unique FU-language without Swedish influence. "Pohja" in this context has very narrow and original meaning.

http://suupohja.fi/mika-ihmeen-suupohja/

How do the "Pohja" in this context has a very narrow and original meaning?
Maybe the "Suupohja" is related by it's meaning to the part of Botnian bay called in finnish "Merenkurkku". So that the Suupohja is a mouth to the pohja, as 'suu' means mouth or opening of some sort. So if going through Suupohja one can end up in pohjoinen. In estonian i would say "põhja suue". But Suupohja also sounds like a bottom of a mouth if i'm not changeing the order of words suu and pohja...

In this context (Suupohja) it means simply a low land. Those old texts let us understand that "suu" was hardly understandable. It could have mean the way where people from Satakunta moved to Ostrobothnia, as mentioned in the text. In my opinion the idea of Suupohja being the next from Merenkurkku was a joke, because "suu" sounded a bit weird in this context.