
merimaa kirjoitti:Jos oletetaan, että tokaarinpuhujat olisivat olleet tekemisissä myös samojedikielen puhujien kanssa, olisiko se voinut tapahtua vielä aiemmin, eli aiemmin kuin 700-luvulla ennen ajanlaskun alkua? Sehän tarkoittaisi, että samojedikielen puhujia kannattaisi etsiä Altain suunnalta suhteellisen varhain, vaikka heidän oletetaan levinneen pohjoiseen vasta lähempänä ajanlaskun alkua tai sen jälkeen (esim. Khanina & Idimeshev, CIFU14-tiivistelmä).
Chams Bernardin ajoitukset eivät kuitenkaan edellytä sitä, että samojedikielen puhujat olisivat olleet alusta lähtien Altain suunnalla, vaan heillä olisi ollut aikaa siirtyä sinne myöhemminkin.




merimaa kirjoitti:Geneettinen ja arkeologinen todistusaineisto viittaavat siis siihen, että samojedien tyyppistä väestöä olisi voinut asua Ob-joen yläjuoksulla, josta sitä olisi siirtynyt etelämmäksi Altaille ehkä jo 200-luvulla ennen ajanlaskun alkua tai viimeistään ajanlaskun alun jälkeisinä vuosisatoina, ja myös kielitieteessä Tapani Salminen sijoittaa kantasamojedin Ob- ja Jenisei-joen yläjuoksujen väliselle taigavyöhykkeelle. Tämä suhteellisen pohjoinen sijainti on kuitenkin ongelma, jos oletetaan, että samojedin ja tokaarin välillä olisi ollut yhteyksiä ja nämä yhteydet olisivat muodostuneet mieluummin aikaisin kuin myöhään, kuten esimerkiksi Abel Warries (2022) ehdottaa. Miten tokaari sopisi tähän kuvioon?

Jaska kirjoitti:Esitokaariin liitetty Afanasievon kulttuuri ulottui kuitenkin pohjoisessa Angara-joelle, joten eikös tuo ole riittävän pohjoisessa?

In conclusion, unlike the archaeological Yamnaya homeland, the linguistic homeland of the core Indo-European language community cannot be located in the eastern steppe, but must be situated around, and extending to the west of, the Dnieper River. After the formation of the core Indo-European dialect continuum in this area after ca. 3300 BCE, it gradually developed into a network of increasingly evolved and disconnected varieties of Indo-European speech, thus foreshadowing the final fragmentation of the language and the movements of the various branches into Europe and Asia. Intriguingly, Indo-Iranian and especially Tocharian were impacted less heavily by the later, more radical shift towards agriculture that manifests itself in the European branches, indicating that they were culturally but also geographically more peripheral. However, since these branches share the Indo-European words for ‘plow’ and ‘pound grain’, they must, too, somehow have been involved in or at least connected to the establishment of the core Indo-European continuum in the West Pontic region. Scenarios in which the European branches moved west and the Asian branch stayed east of the Dnieper therefore appear overly simplistic. [...] Quite possibly, segments of the core Indo-European speech community moved west before they moved east, including those groups that ultimately introduced Tocharian and Indo-Iranian to Asia. For the steppe component in Indo-Iranians, the Eastern European Corded Ware has been suggested as the mediator of Yamnaya ancestry. For Tocharian, it may be necessary to assume an indirect dispersal as well in view of the late spread of agriculture to the eastern steppe. The wooden plows of the Catacomb culture (2500–1950 BCE) offer an archaeological terminus post quem. A successive potential proxy is the Babyno culture (2200–1700 BCE), whose similarities to the Epi-Corded Ware of the Carpathian region suggest an East-Central European origin.
"[A] theory that is supported at the present time by most researchers suggests that Okunevo culture resulted from the interaction of local Neolithic hunter-gatherers with Western cattle breeders. This opinion is supported by evident parallels between early Okunevo burials and those of the Catacomb culture (Lazaretov 1995)."
"Radiocarbon AMS dating of 50 Okunevo samples are within 2600–1800 BCE (Polyakov 2017; Polykov and Svyatko 2009; Svyatko at al. 2009). According to these studies the Uybat period is dated as 2600–2300 BCE, Chernovaya as 2200–1900 BCE, and Razliv later than 1800 BCE."
"The Okunevo culture shares some elements of its material culture including pottery with a number of local cultures from adjacent areas such as the Samus’, Elunino, Karacol, and Krotovo cultures of western Siberia and Altai, the Kanay type burials of eastern Kazakhstan, and the Okunevo-like culture of Tuva. This makes it possible to view all of them as belonging to “the ring of related Okunevo-like cultures” (Molodin 2006; Savinov 1997; Stambulnik and Chugunov 2006). Nevertheless, there is currently no sound evidence of the common origins of all these cultures."
"The article presents the results of archaeological excavations of burial mound no. 1 of the Uibat-Charkov burial ground (Ust-Abakan district of the Republic of Khakassia) and their scientific interpretation. This mound dates from the early Uibat stage of the Okunevo culture and can be regarded as a reference site of that period (the Early Bronze Age). [...] Of great scientific importance is the discovery in this mound of three burials in the catacombs [graves 3, 4, 6]. This is confirmed by the observations of specia'lists on the links between the Okunevo culture and the Catacomb cultural-historical community. [...] Based on a series of five radiocarbon dates of the undisturbed grave 11, the approximate age of the mound was determined by 25th-23th centuries BC. In connection with the research of this site, one can again return to the problem of the origin of the Okunevo culture. There is a large number of analogies with the sites of the Late-Pit Grave and the Pit Grave - Catacomb time of the North-Western Caspian."
"To date, at least 10 burials in the catacombs have been discovered in the Okunev sites: Yes (Есь) [Lipskiy, 1954]; Uybat-1 (Уйбат-1), burial mound No. 1, graves 1 and 7 [Nagler, Parzinger, 2006]; Uybat-Sh (Уйбат-Ш), burial mound No. 1, grave 2 [Lazaretov, 1997]; Uybat-U (Уйбат-У), burial mound No. 1, graves 4 and 6 [Lazaretov, 1997]; Itkol-P (Итколь-П), burial mound No. 14, grave 8; Uybat-Charkov (Уйбат-Чарков), burial mound No. 1, graves 3, 4, 6. [...] All of them belong to the Uybat stage of the Okunev culture and are no longer found later, at the Chernovaya stage. Moreover, the earliest radiocarbon dates from the burials of the Okunev culture are associated specifically with samples from the catacombs [Polyakov, 2017a, p. 58]."
"To assess the sources of population differentiation in Late Bronze Age Western Siberia, measurements of 68 cranial samples of this and earlier periods were processed with multivariate statistical methods. Results support the idea of at least two post-Afanasyevo migrations to Siberia from the west — pre-Andronovo and Andronovo. The former was represented by Chaa-Khol, Yelunino, and Samus people. Those associated with Karakol culture partly resemble the above and partly both autochthonous populations — that of Baraba (“Northern Eurasian formation”) and that of Okunev culture (“Southern Eurasian formation”), which appear to be two extremes of a single continuum."
"Yelunino, Chaa-Khol, and Samus represented the second (after Afanasyevo) migration to Siberia from the west, and Andronovo represented the third. Karakol shows similarities with both the pre-Andronovo groups of western origin (Yelunino and Chaa-Khol), and with the aborigines of the Baraba forest-steppe, and with Yelovka."
"The bearers of the Yelovka culture from Yelovka II are similar to Okunevo, but apparently have a small Andronovo admixture. The Late Krotovo (Chernoozero) groups from Sopka and Chernoozerye deviate from the aborigines of the northern Eurasian formation from Baraba in favor of not the Andronovo people, but Okunevo."
"[The] second wave of migration of the Caucasoid population led to the formation of a suite of archaeological cultures on the territory of Southern Siberia: Karakol, Chaa-Khol, Okunevo and Samus."


merimaa kirjoitti:Tokaarin varhaisia vaiheita ei tarvitse välttämättä sitoa Afanasievon kulttuuriin, sillä Kroonen et al. (2022) yhdistävät tokaarin vasta johonkin myöhempään muuttoliikkeeseen, joka sai alkunsa melko lännestä, Mustanmeren pohjoispuolelta. He perustelevat tätä tokaarissa säilyneellä indoeurooppalaisella maanviljelysanastolla ja esittävät, että tokaari olisi voinut levitä itään aikaisintaan katakombikulttuurista (2500-1950 eaa.) tai vasta Babynon kulttuurista (2200-1700 eaa.) ("Indo-European cereal terminology suggests a Northwest Pontic homeland for the core Indo-European languages"; "[The] Afanasievo culture, with its lack of evidence for agriculture, does not provide an evidently suitable context for the Tocharian homeland").

"We find that individuals of the Catacomb archaeological complex, which chronologically partially overlaps and succeeds Yamna in the [North Pontic Region] NPR, continued to exhibit Yamna genetic ancestry. The population, labelled ‘Ukraine_EBA_Catacomb’, including individuals I12840 and I16668 from our dataset, is cladal with the Core Yamna (P = 0.075, Supplementary Information section 2 and Supplementary Table 2.1). Yamna ancestry persisted in the NPR into the second half of the third millennium BCE."
"The Catacomb group was succeeded in the NPR by the Babyne (Multi-Cordoned Ware) complex (Supplementary Information section 1.4). Feasible models for Babyne ancestry involve Core Yamna, a European farmer source, and considerable hunter-gatherer ancestry (Table 1, Supplementary Information section 2 and Supplementary Table 2.14). Similarly admixed populations have been described from the Bronze Age of present-day Romania at the sites of Arman (Cârlomănești) and Târgșoru Vechi in Muntenia 10, indicating that populations of high hunter-gatherer ancestry contributed to some post-Yamna people in the NPR and Southern Carpathians."


Jaska kirjoitti:6. Tokaarissa on mahdollisesti vastine johdoksesta *h3erh2-tro- merkityksessä 'kyntää'. Tämä sentään tuntuisi liittyvän kiinteästi maanviljelyyn. Kuitenkin tokaari A:n sanaa pidetään lainana tokaari B:stä**, ja tokaari B:ssä sama sana tai homonyymi merkitsee myös 'tomu, löyhä maa', joka yhdessä anatolian sanan kanssa voisi edustaa alkuperäistä merkitystä. On siis mahdollista, että merkitys 'kyntää' olisikin kehittynyt itsenäisesti vasta tokaari B:ssä.
** āre (n.) ‘plow’: https://aeb.win.tue.nl/natlang/ie/tochB.html
āre (n.[m.sg.]) '±(settled) dust, loose earth'
[...]
"Winter's discussion (2003: 112-115; whence all the restorations and translations here) make it almost certain that āre is not 'plow' as herefore supposed. Since, as Winter points out, taur and tweye, also 'dust/ash', appear to refer to blown dust, āre may be 'settled dust' or the like. (In THT-2237a3 then āre is used in the same sense as English 'dust' in the Ash Wednesday admonition: "Remember, man, thou art dust, and to dust thou shalt return.") On the other hand, Tocharian A āre does appear to mean 'plow' (TchA-361a5 where = Pali naṅgala-)."
TA āre* ‘plow’
"TA āre* is attested as a plural āreñ in A361.5 (knānmune)ṣi ñi muk kälkāṃ āreñ." [...]
"[O]n the basis of āre ‘plow’ we may set up a verb ār- or ārā- ‘plow’. Because of the obvious connection with PIE *h2erh3- ‘plow’ (‘grind, crush’ in Hittite), the latter option seems preferable. The expected meaning of such a derivation is that of an abstract noun, something like ‘plowing’, or a result noun, i.e. ‘plowed land’. However, a shift from ‘plowing’, if that was the original meaning, to ‘plow’ presents no difficulties"
GHOST: TB āre ‘plow’
"As shown by Winter (2003), there is no Tocharian B āre ‘plow’ corresponding to Tocharian A āre ‘plow’ (discussed above), as was previously thought (e.g. Schmidt 2002: 8). There is a word āre, but this means rather ‘dust’ according to Winter. Winter’s proposal has been corroborated by a new interpretation of an Old Uyghur gloss to one of the crucial passages: B331a1 kenantse āre ‘dust of the earth; soil of the earth’ is glossed with kayakın, possibly approximately ‘soft upper layer of the earth’ (Maue 2009: 23–24). Adams (2013: 51–52) accepts Winter’s suggestion, but distinguishes a second āre meaning ‘end, limit’, which is a good possibility in view of the verb ara- ‘stop’. All in all, there seems to be general agreement that none of the attestations of āre means ‘plow’."
"I do not intend to correct all translations which are inexact. I give the following ones as sample:" [...]
"B331 a1–2 (completed partly by the little fragment THT1393.e, a1) inte no ynemane snai prayok kenantse āre māntatär-ne • or kärweñ tättālñeṣṣe wat abhiprāysa āre māntatär-ne anāpatti ste ‘If however while going the plowing of earth without purpose disturbs it, or if because of the intention of setting up wood [and] rock the plow disturbs it, there is no offence’. This paragraph belongs to the discussion of exceptions to the interdiction of injuring the soil by plowing (Skt. bhūmy-upaghāta-). Actually this term is transposed by kenantse āre. This was basically understood correctly (except for abhiprāysa) by Klaus T. Schmidt (1974, 489)."
"The meaning ‘plow’ or ‘plowing’ of āre is confirmed by Toch. A āre, translating Skt. naṅgala- (Carling 2009, 44). Therefore, the interpretation of āre by ‘dust’, as per Winter (2003), followed partly by A. [= Douglas Q. Adams (2013)] (51–52, but not consistently, compare 486 s. u. mänt-) does not make sense in the context of the Vinaya casuistry. This result should be preliminary to any discussion about the derivation of āre in comparative framework."
āre* (n.masc.) ‘plough’ (Pa. naṅgala-)
"The passage 361.5 corresponds to Pa. (SN I: 172, Sn 77) paññā me yuganaṅgalaṃ ‘wisdom is my yoke and plough’ (Norman 1992:9), lit. ‘plough fitted with a yoke’. The Tocharian translation says lit. ‘ploughs fitting (lit. following) the yoke’."
... if (he re)moves … (or) if (he) pulls out a shell or a vessel that has sunk into a mudhole, (but) pours back its contents, all [this amounts to a] duṣkṛta [offence]. If, however, by him walking along without a specific purpose the dust of the (good) soil is disturbed (or) if unintentionally the dust on heaps of wood and stone(s) is disturbed, this does not constitute an offence. The pātayantika [rule] concerned with violation of the soil has come to an end. (7)3. (121 and passim) (Peyrot 2013b: 696)
Wenn aber der Pflug im [Dahin]gehen ohne Vorstellung von der Erde sie [von sich aus] verletzt [oder wenn] der Pflug sie, für Holz [oder] Stein halten(d), ... (un)absichtlich [von sich aus] verletzt, [so] liegt kein Vergehen vor. (Schmidt 1974: 489)
Wenn aber der Pflug im Dahingehen von sich aus ohne Vorstellung von der Erde sie [scil. die Erde] verletzt [oder] wenn der Pflug sie, für Holz [oder] Stein haltend, unbeabsichtigt von sich aus verletzt, [so] ist [das] kein Vergehen. (Schmidt 1974: 74)

merimaa kirjoitti:Erilaiset käsitykset tokaari-B:n sanan āre merkityksestä palautuvat siis nähtävästi kahteen erilaiseen käännökseen samasta tokaarinkielisestä tekstistä. Silloin tutkijoilla voi olla minusta ihan perustellusti erilaisia käsityksiä, eikä se tarkoita, että Kroonen et al. (2022) olisivat tulkinneet tokaarin sanastoa jotenkin epäammattimaisesti tai omien ennakko-odotustensa mukaisesti.






"Words inherited from Proto-Indo-European, but with a secondary technical meaning are: TB ysāre ‘wheat’, TA wsār ‘grain’ < *ues-r ‘spring’; TB śātre ‘grain’ < *gᵂih₃u- ‘live’; TB kǝta- ‘strew, sow’, TB śäktālye ‘seed’, TA śäktālyi ‘id.’ < *(s)kedh- ‘scatter’; TB sarya- ‘plant’, TA sāryā- ‘id.’ < *ser- ‘attach’; TA kam ā(r)e– ‘plowshare’ < *ǵombʰo- ‘tooth’; TA pate ‘plowing’, TA pātā- ‘plow’ < *bʰedʰh₂- ‘dig’."
"The verb *h₂erh₃- is not attested as such in Tocharian. The regular expression for ‘plough’ seems to be TA pātā- ‘plough’, pate ‘ploughing’ < *bʰodʰh₂- (Lat. fodiō, -ere ‘pierce, dig’, Hitt. padda-i, padd- ‘dig (the ground, a pit)’, OCS bodǫ ‘stab’, Lith. bedù ‘stick, dig’). However, Tocharian A āreñ surely means ‘plough’. Apparently this is in origin the plural of an abstract noun āre ‘ploughing’ derived from a verb *ār- or *ārā-; this verb is obviously to be set up as *ārā- < Proto-Tocharian *ara- < *h₂erh₃- (Peyrot 2018b: 262–263).
The replacement of the original verb for ‘plough’ by the verb for ‘dig’ is a little peculiar. Perhaps the reason is the phonological merger of *ara- ‘plough’ with *ara- ‘cease’ (Tocharian B ara- ‘cease’, A arā- ‘id.’)"

Käyttäjiä lukemassa tätä aluetta: Ei rekisteröityneitä käyttäjiä ja 1 vierailijaa