botten-pohja?

[Ziilike]

Interesting is Pohja, located in SW Finland, which has Swedish name "Pojo"(!?) https://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohja_vald

An intresting find. Swedish variant of this wikipedia article leads to a source (http://bebyggelsenamn.sls.fi/bebyggelse ... -raseborg/) where are chronologically listed names of this settlement troughout history.

Paya * (reconstruction of somekind?)
Poyæ 1335 (really that old notifying? from where did they get this? that's about 100 years after Henry of Latvia started to write down first faulty estonian language words.. and already someone mentioned some little settlement in Finland??)
Poijo 1351
Poija 1359
Pojo 1427 *

In this case, it looks like finnish word (pohja) is loaned into swedish and mutated a bit by sweds,
as this source (http://bebyggelsenamn.sls.fi/bebyggelse ... -raseborg/) explains - Pojo comes from fi. pohja 'bottom, the interior of a bay' (with the help of google translate). Another interesting thing here is that this source explains the meaning of finnish pohja additonally to bottom also as the interior of a bay.

Also this wiki article leads to another variant of swedish name 'Bottenviken', there is a Pojoviken (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pojoviken), this article sais that in Pojoviken the pojo comes from finnish pohja.

yes but, pohja 'bottom, the interior of a bay'... This looks a bit similar to explanation of swedish botn as Svensk etymologisk ordbok sais it means a bay (http://runeberg.org/svetym/0146.html). Or are swedish words botten-'bottom' and botn (also botten)-'bay' with different origin but just accidentally looks an sounds the same.. ?
ugh

guess that the loaning could have been happened throughout the history back and forth, from swedish to finnish and to swedish, or in all kinds of combinations, which makes it hard to track what really happened..

[Sigfrid]

Ziilike, good work. We have maybe hundreds Finland-Swedish place names originating from old Finnish names.

For example near my summer home is an island Sarvisalo, in Swedish Sarvsalö. According linguists "sarvi/sarv" is an old Tavastian word and means seaside grass or the rushes. "Salö" can cursorily look like sal-ö (ö - island), but it is more likely a construction from Finnish "salo". This only for example about confusing Swedish names in Finland.

[Ziilike]

More about the meaning of Pohjanmaa. Most historians in Finland interpret that "pohja" in this case comes from "being on the bottom". It is understood to be a geographical view, not meaning north. Obviously the reason is our common history with Sweden, where the western side of "Botniska viken" is called Västerbotten and the eastern side is called Österbotten. Remember that in Swedish "north" is "Nord" and "bottom" is " botten". In Sweden there is, as in Scotland, high lands and low lands. I don't know how they called Swedish high lands, but it is reasonable to assume that their low lands were called "botten". In Finland we have not mountains, but Pohjanmaa/Österbotten is really low, even lower than its Swedish counterpart. So I understand the outcome of many Finnish historians. There was at first, before crusades, Swedish "Botten", later Västerbotten and Österbotten. Österbotten, locating in Finland, was translated to Pohjanmaa, where "pohja" comes from Swedish " botten". In Finnish "pohja" MEANS bottom, not north.

In Sweden there really was a one historical province they called Uppland (literally means up land - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uppland). So this might be that the parts of (old)Sweden was divided into high lands and low lands, or Uppland-areas and Botten-areas.

[Sigfrid]

More about the meaning of Pohjanmaa. Most historians in Finland interpret that "pohja" in this case comes from "being on the bottom". It is understood to be a geographical view, not meaning north. Obviously the reason is our common history with Sweden, where the western side of "Botniska viken" is called Västerbotten and the eastern side is called Österbotten. Remember that in Swedish "north" is "Nord" and "bottom" is " botten". In Sweden there is, as in Scotland, high lands and low lands. I don't know how they called Swedish high lands, but it is reasonable to assume that their low lands were called "botten". In Finland we have not mountains, but Pohjanmaa/Österbotten is really low, even lower than its Swedish counterpart. So I understand the outcome of many Finnish historians. There was at first, before crusades, Swedish "Botten", later Västerbotten and Österbotten. Österbotten, locating in Finland, was translated to Pohjanmaa, where "pohja" comes from Swedish " botten". In Finnish "pohja" MEANS bottom, not north.

In Sweden there really was a one historical province they called Uppland (literally means up land - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uppland). So this might be that the parts of (old)Sweden was divided into high lands and low lands, or Uppland-areas and Botten-areas.

The funny thing here is that Uppland has an etymology "being to the north of something" and the something is Götaland and Denmark.

[Ziilike]

For example near my summer home is an island Sarvisalo, in Swedish Sarvsalö. According linguists "sarvi/sarv" is an old Tavastian word and means seaside grass or the rushes. "Salö" can cursorily look like sal-ö (ö - island), but it is more likely a construction from Finnish "salo". This only for example about confusing Swedish names in Finland.

I could suggest that in the name Sarvisalo the sarvi could also be after type of fish that sweds call sarvi, finnish call it sorva, in estonian it's roosärg. 'Salo' sounds to me as estonian salu - grove, forest patch.
In the name 'Uppsala' the sal/salr is said to have a meaning in finnish sali, estonian saal - "hall", "large room", a place for feasting and maybe for party. Sarvisalo could then also mean something like ''hall for sorva (this fish)". Yea, but who knows, also the wrong etymologies are easy to come and make.


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[Pystynen]

This sami hut thing is logical and reasonable explanation.

But how come that if estonian an finnish directoin's name põhi (pohjoinen) are etymologically related to sami words boaššu or posio then the samis aren't useing something similar to their own name for north direction?

The reason is that the north-south orientation of a house or a hut is not taken from the Sami; it is an ancient Finno-Ugric heritage and was likely once used by the Finnic peoples as well. (I do not know if it has been recorded as a living folk tradition.)

In sami language north is davvi (if i'm correct; it looks like it's realated to estonian talv or finnis talvi).

Though it may not look much like it, davvi is rather related to Es. süva / Fi. syvä. ('Winter' is instead dálvi.) The naming scheme here is roughly the same: 'north' = 'deep', 'under'.

I could hypothetically relate these sami words to old norse or germanic languages somehow like that that in the swedish botten or old norse botn the -tt- or -t- is changed into -šš- or -s- in sami boaššu and posio. This is a guess ofcoures, but it seems like in finnougric languages sometimes t is prone to change into s. Meaning that it has been changed into softer letter. (further development may have been the changeing of s into h, as in põhi or in pohjoinen). I don't know... could it be?

Anything is possible as long as we are dealing with history, but this does not follow the usual development of consonants in the Finnic languages (or in Sami).

Also, at best this would still explain only the poh- part. There is no reason though why the Germanic ending -en would have been switched into the completely different "ending" -ja in Finnic (not even actually an ending, just the 2nd syllable of the root).

If you've looked at Eesti etümoloogiasonaraamat, you've probably seen them mention two possible loan origins. One is derivation from Germanic *bandsija- 'stall' (báss in Old Norse, bås in Swedish); this would work well phonetically, but the meaning is off by quite a bit. The other is derivation from Indo-Iranian *pasčā 'behind' (distantly related to Latin post), which would seem to work better in explaining the repeating side meaning 'north', 'back part'. It seems to me like the best etymology.

I would not be surprised if sami people living in far north have some word for south direction that sounds similar to põhi or pohjoinen

'South' in Northern Sami is lulli, which is according to one explanation (but I would say not a particularly likely one) built on the same root as lõuna / lounas. The meaning of the corresponding word varies in the other Sami languages though; in the Sami languages of Sweden, luvlie or lulle is rather 'east'. This probably means that at some point the Sami conceived of this not as an absolute direction, but as a relative direction meaning something like "downstream, towards the Gulf of Finland". (Their other direction terms do this as well; e.g. noerhte in Southern Sami is 'north', as could be expected, but in Northern Sami this turns 90° to become nuorta meaning 'east', so this would have rather meant something like "in a direction along the coast".)

[Sigfrid]

For example near my summer home is an island Sarvisalo, in Swedish Sarvsalö. According linguists "sarvi/sarv" is an old Tavastian word and means seaside grass or the rushes. "Salö" can cursorily look like sal-ö (ö - island), but it is more likely a construction from Finnish "salo". This only for example about confusing Swedish names in Finland.

I could suggest that in the name Sarvisalo the sarvi could also be after type of fish that sweds call sarvi, finnish call it sorva, in estonian it's roosärg. 'Salo' sounds to me as estonian salu - grove, forest patch.
In the name 'Uppsala' the sal/salr is said to have a meaning in finnish sali, estonian saal - "hall", "large room", a place for feasting and maybe for party. Sarvisalo could then also mean something like ''hall for sorva (this fish)". Yea, but who knows, also the wrong etymologies are easy to come and make.


.

I don't see reason for guessing the origin of "sarvi". I only try to recall things I have read about what linguists or historians have written. "Salo" is described being a forested patch or a forested island. It seems to have common meaning with Estonian.

[Ziilike]

This sami hut thing is logical and reasonable explanation.

But how come that if estonian an finnish directoin's name põhi (pohjoinen) are etymologically related to sami words boaššu or posio then the samis aren't useing something similar to their own name for north direction?

The reason is that the north-south orientation of a house or a hut is not taken from the Sami; it is an ancient Finno-Ugric heritage and was likely once used by the Finnic peoples as well. (I do not know if it has been recorded as a living folk tradition.)

As an "Eesti etümoloogiasonaraamat" sais that the sami word (boašˈšu) might be an old loan from finnic languages, then it might be somehow like samis loaned the word with also the way to use north-south orientation at the placement of their hut.. Actually i don't really bite through your explanation. If you could open it more a bit (i am stupid i know).
The north-south orientation of a house or a hut is said to have come from building a livingplace efficiently in nature, that means if one makes the entrance of a hut faceing south then this results in more sunlight and warmth from the sun entering the hut. So i don't belive it's only Finno-Ugric specific and heritage - anybody living in nature and with nature could have come up something like this.
People in old times used also east-west orientation, i don't find it right now but i remember that i read once something about orientations, east-west and siberian peoples (khanty maybe).
The direction of a rising sun was quite important. This east-west importance comes out with the germanic word north, which is said to mean left side (etymologically), direction to the left if faceing sunrise.

If you've looked at Eesti etümoloogiasonaraamat, you've probably seen them mention two possible loan origins. One is derivation from Germanic *bandsija- 'stall' (báss in Old Norse, bås in Swedish); this would work well phonetically, but the meaning is off by quite a bit. The other is derivation from Indo-Iranian *pasčā 'behind' (distantly related to Latin post), which would seem to work better in explaining the repeating side meaning 'north', 'back part'. It seems to me like the best etymology.

Another thing one can see in "Eesti etümoloogiasonaraamat" is that in the case of word ''põhi'' there are not pointed out any relative words in other Finno-ugric languages besides finnic languages (ok only sami that is not finnic), but no relative words from ugric language group, nothing from permic language and mari and mordva (ersa mokša) languages.. That seems to be an argument supporting idea taht the word is loaned rather from germanic languages.

[Ziilike]

I don't see reason for guessing the origin of "sarvi". I only try to recall things I have read about what linguists or historians have written. "Salo" is described being a forested patch or a forested island. It seems to have common meaning with Estonian.

i just thought something that if u mentioned that it's an island then maybe people fished there and know that it's a place where one can catch these type of fish called sorva. But i don't know how the place looks and what's there, so..

[Eskous]

In Finnish "pohja" MEANS bottom, not north.

However, "pohjatuuli" is northernly wind. Maybe it has been originally wind from direction of Pohja. Kalevala has "Pohjan tuuli".

[Sigfrid]

In Finnish "pohja" MEANS bottom, not north.

However, "pohjatuuli" is northernly wind. Maybe it has been originally wind from direction of Pohja. Kalevala has "Pohjan tuuli".

Kalevala has also Pohjan akka harvahammas or Pohjolan emäntä. But Kalevala was gathered in Viena, was composed by Lönnrot, and during the fancied Kalevala era Pohjanmaa didn't even exist. Pohjanmaa was named in other way and in my opinion in the 1600s. Fantasy and reality seldom meet.

edit. Pohjanmaa was earlier, before the 17th century, Kyrönmaa aka Pohjankyrö.

[Eskous]

...but we still have the problem that "pohjatuuli" means northernly wind. Is it that the idea of "pohjoinen" has been injected to the word "pohja" in it only because they rhyme by their beginning? Is "pohjatuuli" a new invention (by eg. Aleksis Kivi) as a word?

EDIT: Ah, never mind. Pystynen explained the real connection of "pohja" and "pohjoinen" already convincingly.

[Sigfrid]

...but we still have the problem that "pohjatuuli" means northernly wind. Is it that the idea of "pohjoinen" has been injected to the word "pohja" in it only because they rhyme by their beginning? Is "pohjatuuli" a new invention (by eg. Aleksis Kivi) as a word?

EDIT: Ah, never mind. Pystynen explained the real connection of "pohja" and "pohjoinen" already convincingly.

But Pystynen is wrong, because Finnish historians know the history of Pohjanmaa. Linguists can build theories based on words, but it is not a proven history.

Swedish "botten" is in Finnish "pohja", in English "bottom". "Pohjoinen" is in Swedish "nord", in English "north". The idea that Finnish "pohjoinen" comes from the opposite interior side of the hut door proves only that "pohjoinen" could be derived from "pohja" as descripted earlier, which actually is in Finnish "perä". It doesn't prove that "pohja" (botten) means "pohjoinen" (nord).

Our history was connected to Sweden almost 700 years and it was common to adapt meanings from Sweden and Swedish language. We should just agree it and stop trying to deny it

[Ziilike]

Also, the word you read as ‹pôhl› is probably instead ‹pôhí› (having ‹i› with an acute accent); the letter is slighty smudged, but you can still see in the middle a serif extending to the left, which would not be expected to happen in an "l". As far as I know, the Finnic term for 'North' does not occur in any dialect or variety as anything resembling **pohl-.

This ‹pôhl› in paiwata pôhl, or päiwata pohl means a 'side'. It's not a smudged ‹i› that looks like "l", but it is "l". To translate paiwata pôhl wholly it means a side without a sun as paiwata means 'without a sun' or 'without a day'. I think this word combination to describe 'north' may just be constructed by old german language men as they did not know the proper word but did know that a 'south' was sometimes called something like päeva pool - a day side. The word ending -ta in paiwata means without.

[Ziilike]

Our history was connected to Sweden almost 700 years and it was common to adapt meanings from Sweden and Swedish language. We should just agree it and stop trying to deny it

Ahaa, so that's what's about it :)

I think it's quite clear that "pohjoinen"(north) was probably derived from "pohja", and "pohja"(bottom) is word with older origin.
For a word 'bottom' or 'back side' finno-ugric peoples have used a word 'perä', 'pära' an variants of it in languages. This word is basically ubiquituos among all fino-ugric languages, not in just finnic language group, as seems to be with "pohja" (pära: http://www.eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q= ... F=M&C06=et).

From somewhere must have come 'pohja' adittonally to 'pära'.

[Sigfrid]

Our history was connected to Sweden almost 700 years and it was common to adapt meanings from Sweden and Swedish language. We should just agree it and stop trying to deny it

Ahaa, so that's what's about it :)

It is obvious, but don't expect any widely acceptance, because it is not possible if you want to go ahead on certain ideology.

I think it's quite clear that "pohjoinen"(north) was probably derived from "pohja", and "pohja"(bottom) is word with older origin.
For a word 'bottom' or 'back side' finno-ugric peoples have used a word 'perä', 'pära' an variants of it in languages. This word is basically ubiquituos among all fino-ugric languages, not in just finnic language group, as seems to be with "pohja" (pära: http://www.eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q= ... F=M&C06=et).

From somewhere must have come 'pohja' adittonally to 'pära'.

Yeah, we have "pohja" and "perä". "Perä" is very commonly used in place names as a postfix in Southwestern Finland, around Tavastia and in Pohjanmaa from Kokkola to Oulu. It is rare in East Finland. Postfix "pohja" is common in Central Finland and exists also in East Finland. It is rare in West Finland. Both words exist in areas bordering to North Tavastia. I can imagine that "pohja" as a postfix doesn't correspond to "pohjoinen".

[aikalainen]

These two versions are related to each others: itä-itäinen, kaakko-kaakkoinen, etelä-eteläinen, lounas-lounainen, länsi-läntinen, luode-luoteinen, pohja-pohjoinen, koi(?)-koillinen. Just in cases of 'pohjoinen' and 'koillinen', nowadays only one form is used.

[aikalainen]

In sami language north is davvi (if i'm correct; it looks like it's realated to estonian talv or finnis talvi).

Though it may not look much like it, davvi is rather related to Es. süva / Fi. syvä. ('Winter' is instead dálvi.) The naming scheme here is roughly the same: 'north' = 'deep', 'under'.

Yes, when the Sun is at its lowest position, that is also a kind of 'bottom' ('pohja').

[Eskous]

Swedish "botten" is in Finnish "pohja", in English "bottom". "Pohjoinen" is in Swedish "nord", in English "north". The idea that Finnish "pohjoinen" comes from the opposite interior side of the hut door proves only that "pohjoinen" could be derived from "pohja" as descripted earlier, which actually is in Finnish "perä". It doesn't prove that "pohja" (botten) means "pohjoinen" (nord).

At least there seems to be a late tendency in Finnish to inject the meaning "pohjoinen" into "pohja". Or do you deny even that?

[Sigfrid]

Swedish "botten" is in Finnish "pohja", in English "bottom". "Pohjoinen" is in Swedish "nord", in English "north". The idea that Finnish "pohjoinen" comes from the opposite interior side of the hut door proves only that "pohjoinen" could be derived from "pohja" as descripted earlier, which actually is in Finnish "perä". It doesn't prove that "pohja" (botten) means "pohjoinen" (nord).

At least there seems to be a late tendency in Finnish to inject the meaning "pohjoinen" into "pohja". Or do you deny even that?

Nope. That tendency is hard as a rock, if you find the meaning