botten-pohja?

[Sigfrid]

Sirkka Paikkala in her book Suomalaine Paikannimikirja writes that Pohja (place in Finland) has got its name due to the location on the lowest place (near some lake). Then she start to fable regarding Pohjanmaa. She composes that Pohjanmaa could be a medieval name meaning "northern land". We have no written documents about this, of course, and what she writes is purest speculation.

[jussipussi]

In Estonia you have not Pohjanmaa

Meillä on, mutta ei se mene sekaisin kattilan, eikä minkään muunkaan vastaavan pohjan kanssa,

[jussipussi]

In my opintoni hut explation is good. Only problem is why Sami don't have same names. However its generally known that theory cardinall points are 90 degrees twisted, at least some of them. Sami and other FU (tarkoitan Itämeren suomalaisia) were from same cultur, and i think names are so old. Sami people changed names when they began to live in mountains and tundra. And of course I have to addmit that it was mainly language which spread to the Lappland, not so much people.

[aikalainen]

Sirkka Paikkala in her book Suomalaine Paikannimikirja writes that Pohja (place in Finland) has got its name due to the location on the lowest place (near some lake). Then she start to fable ...

Kirjaan on koottu monen henkilön eri aikakausina antamia selityksiä. Osa selityksistä on laadukkaita ja osa idioottimaisen typeriä. Jälkimmäisistä harmillisen monet ovat juuri kyseisen henkilön kirjoittamia.

Pohja sijaitsee 20 km pitkän lahden perimmäisessä pohjukassa. Lahti suuntautuu pohjoiseen (vanhassa kielessä pohja). Eiköhän näissä ole jo riittävästi aineksia selityksille. Paikannimikirjassa on menty merta edemmäs kalastamaan nimiselityksiä.

Kyseinen lahti on ruotsiksi Pojoviken ja suomeksi Pohjanpitäjänlahti. Jälkimmäinen vaikuttaa keinotekoiselta, kansanomaisempi nimi saattaisi olla Pohjanlahti.

[jussipussi]

But if "Pohja" means Pohjanmaa, the western lowland in Finland, also Kalevala is consistent. "Pohjan akka" was the queen of Pohja and Pohja lies to the west from Viena. We know also that Karelians living in Viena fought against Ostrobothnians, probably also against Kvens. Again here is a puzzle, often studied by Finnish historians: was Ostrobothnia earlier called Kvenland (in Finnish often Kainuunmaa)? The reasoning flow goes like this: pohjalaiset was called kainulaiset, kainulaiset lived in Kainuunmaa. All this is well known among all Finnish historians, but perhaps not among forumites. A lot text can be found about this topic, for example Julku, a professor of Oulu University, wrote about it, and many others

http://www.antikvaari.fi/naytatuote.asp?id=1397536

The problem is that in Finland the discussion about our history is usually polarized and being such it confuses people who don't own much basic level knowledge.

Tutustuin Julkun kirjoituksiin. Hän oli ainakin 1980-luvun puolivälissä Vahtolan kannalla Perämeren ja Tornion- ja Kemijokilaakson suomalaisperäisen asutuksen synnyn ajankohdasta. Tuottamassaan Faravidin maa kirjassa Pentti Koivunen toteaa, että asutusta on noin 900-luvulta alkaen. Vahtolasta poiketen, hän arveli, että asialla ovat olleet hämäläisten lisäksi myös varsinaissuomalaiset, lisäksi hän arvio myös karjalaisvaikutuksen alkaneen jo tuolloin.

Nyt sinulla on, Sigfrid, kumottavana myös Julkun ja Koivusen näkemykset. Suosittelisin silti mieluummin päivittämään ilmeisesti 70-luvulta olevat tietosi.

[Sigfrid]

But if "Pohja" means Pohjanmaa, the western lowland in Finland, also Kalevala is consistent. "Pohjan akka" was the queen of Pohja and Pohja lies to the west from Viena. We know also that Karelians living in Viena fought against Ostrobothnians, probably also against Kvens. Again here is a puzzle, often studied by Finnish historians: was Ostrobothnia earlier called Kvenland (in Finnish often Kainuunmaa)? The reasoning flow goes like this: pohjalaiset was called kainulaiset, kainulaiset lived in Kainuunmaa. All this is well known among all Finnish historians, but perhaps not among forumites. A lot text can be found about this topic, for example Julku, a professor of Oulu University, wrote about it, and many others

http://www.antikvaari.fi/naytatuote.asp?id=1397536

The problem is that in Finland the discussion about our history is usually polarized and being such it confuses people who don't own much basic level knowledge.

Tutustuin Julkun kirjoituksiin. Hän oli ainakin 1980-luvun puolivälissä Vahtolan kannalla Perämeren ja Tornion- ja Kemijokilaakson suomalaisperäisen asutuksen synnyn ajankohdasta. Eli noin 900 luvulta alkaen. Vahtolasta poiketen, hän arveli, että asialla ovat olleet hämäläisten lisäksi myös varsinaissuomalaiset, lisäksi hän arvio myös karjalaisvaikutuksen alkaneen jo tuolloin.

Nyt sinulla on, Sigfrid, kumottavana myös Julkun näkemys. Suosittelisin silti mieluummin päivittämään ilmeisesti 70-luvulta olevat tietosi.

Niinpä, myös Julku alkoi satuilemaan 70-luvun jälkeen, uskomaan mm. Wiikin teorioihin.

Olet kuitenkin siltä osin väärässä, että tietoni olisivat 70-luvulta, koska osa tiedoistani on 1800-luvulta Ja siltä väliltä.

[Sigfrid]

Sirkka Paikkala in her book Suomalaine Paikannimikirja writes that Pohja (place in Finland) has got its name due to the location on the lowest place (near some lake). Then she start to fable ...

Kirjaan on koottu monen henkilön eri aikakausina antamia selityksiä. Osa selityksistä on laadukkaita ja osa idioottimaisen typeriä. Jälkimmäisistä harmillisen monet ovat juuri kyseisen henkilön kirjoittamia.

Pohja sijaitsee 20 km pitkän lahden perimmäisessä pohjukassa. Lahti suuntautuu pohjoiseen (vanhassa kielessä pohja). Eiköhän näissä ole jo riittävästi aineksia selityksille. Paikannimikirjassa on menty merta edemmäs kalastamaan nimiselityksiä.

Kyseinen lahti on ruotsiksi Pojoviken ja suomeksi Pohjanpitäjänlahti. Jälkimmäinen vaikuttaa keinotekoiselta, kansanomaisempi nimi saattaisi olla Pohjanlahti.

Joten voimme valita mihin tutkijaan uskomme.

[jussipussi]

But if "Pohja" means Pohjanmaa, the western lowland in Finland, also Kalevala is consistent. "Pohjan akka" was the queen of Pohja and Pohja lies to the west from Viena. We know also that Karelians living in Viena fought against Ostrobothnians, probably also against Kvens. Again here is a puzzle, often studied by Finnish historians: was Ostrobothnia earlier called Kvenland (in Finnish often Kainuunmaa)? The reasoning flow goes like this: pohjalaiset was called kainulaiset, kainulaiset lived in Kainuunmaa. All this is well known among all Finnish historians, but perhaps not among forumites. A lot text can be found about this topic, for example Julku, a professor of Oulu University, wrote about it, and many others

http://www.antikvaari.fi/naytatuote.asp?id=1397536

The problem is that in Finland the discussion about our history is usually polarized and being such it confuses people who don't own much basic level knowledge.

Tutustuin Julkun kirjoituksiin. Hän oli ainakin 1980-luvun puolivälissä Vahtolan kannalla Perämeren ja Tornion- ja Kemijokilaakson suomalaisperäisen asutuksen synnyn ajankohdasta. Eli noin 900 luvulta alkaen. Vahtolasta poiketen, hän arveli, että asialla ovat olleet hämäläisten lisäksi myös varsinaissuomalaiset, lisäksi hän arvio myös karjalaisvaikutuksen alkaneen jo tuolloin.

Nyt sinulla on, Sigfrid, kumottavana myös Julkun näkemys. Suosittelisin silti mieluummin päivittämään ilmeisesti 70-luvulta olevat tietosi.

Niinpä, myös Julku alkoi satuilemaan 70-luvun jälkeen, uskomaan mm. Wiikin teorioihin.

Tarkensin kirjoitustani. Olit jo lainannut alkuperäistä. Eli lisäksi vielä Koivunen. Kerro nyt viimein minkä tutkijan havaintoihin sinä perustat näkemyksesi. Vai jatkatko edelleen satuilu linjallasi ja valitset tutkijoilta vain sellaiset havainnot jotka pönkittävät mielikuvituksessasi luomiasi harhoja

[jussipussi]

Sirkka Paikkala in her book Suomalaine Paikannimikirja writes that Pohja (place in Finland) has got its name due to the location on the lowest place (near some lake). Then she start to fable ...

Kirjaan on koottu monen henkilön eri aikakausina antamia selityksiä. Osa selityksistä on laadukkaita ja osa idioottimaisen typeriä. Jälkimmäisistä harmillisen monet ovat juuri kyseisen henkilön kirjoittamia.

Pohja sijaitsee 20 km pitkän lahden perimmäisessä pohjukassa. Lahti suuntautuu pohjoiseen (vanhassa kielessä pohja). Eiköhän näissä ole jo riittävästi aineksia selityksille. Paikannimikirjassa on menty merta edemmäs kalastamaan nimiselityksiä.

Kyseinen lahti on ruotsiksi Pojoviken ja suomeksi Pohjanpitäjänlahti. Jälkimmäinen vaikuttaa keinotekoiselta, kansanomaisempi nimi saattaisi olla Pohjanlahti.

Joten voimme valita mihin tutkijaan uskomme.

Minusta kyseessä on lähinnä lähdekritiikki, ei uskon asia.

[Ziilike]

In Estonia you have not Pohjanmaa

Why not? Pohjanmaa in Est is Põhjamaa.. it's a somewhat relative name.

I found some explanations for the names Bothnia and Pohjalla:

"Many coastal sawmills process the vast forest resources of the hinterland, which was formerly called Bothnia (Botten), whence the gulf’s name."
https://www.britannica.com/place/Gulf-of-Bothnia

"Se on sijainnut siinä osassa pohjoista jonka nimi on Botten, Pohja. Ja mikä paikka on täma botten, pohja? On Bottenviken eli Pohjanlahti.
Pohja on siellä missä on tämän lahden äärimmäinen pohjoinen pohjukka: perämeri, sen perukka. Sitä ympäröivät maat ovat muinaisuudessa olleet merenpohjaa. Niim hieno kaksoismerkitys on Pohjalla."
https://books.google.ee/books?id=ZQ5dAw ... en&f=false

One sais that the gulf name "Bothnia" comes from surrounding land called Bothnia, the second explanation for "Pohjala" seems to be saying that 'Pohjala' is a land that was in ancient times a sea bottom. '
I don't know why but this reminded me somehow this 'chicken and egg' question...

[Sigfrid]

In Estonia you have not Pohjanmaa

Why not? Pohjanmaa in Est is Põhjamaa.. it's a somewhat relative name.

I found some explanations for the names Bothnia and Pohjalla:

"Many coastal sawmills process the vast forest resources of the hinterland, which was formerly called Bothnia (Botten), whence the gulf’s name."
https://www.britannica.com/place/Gulf-of-Bothnia

"Se on sijainnut siinä osassa pohjoista jonka nimi on Botten, Pohja. Ja mikä paikka on täma botten, pohja? On Bottenviken eli Pohjanlahti.
Pohja on siellä missä on tämän lahden äärimmäinen pohjoinen pohjukka: perämeri, sen perukka. Sitä ympäröivät maat ovat muinaisuudessa olleet merenpohjaa. Niim hieno kaksoismerkitys on Pohjalla."
https://books.google.ee/books?id=ZQ5dAw ... en&f=false

One sais that the gulf name "Bothnia" comes from surrounding land called Bothnia, the second explanation for "Pohjala" seems to be saying that 'Pohjala' is a land that was in ancient times a sea bottom. '
I don't know why but this reminded me somehow this 'chicken and egg' question...

Great finds. The more you dig it the more you'll understand my point But there is not a chicken egg paradox, only the original explanation, bottom, and later explanations.

[Sigfrid]

Jussipussi why do you forget ancient Swedes in Pohjanperä?

https://www.finna.fi/Record/arto.515812?lng=en-gb

Kemi's Sihtuna (Sigtuna) or Liedakkala, both names have ancient Germanic etymology. We can add Swedes and likely also Germans to the list. But then we can ask which one of these explanations is true, which one hopefully thinking.

[Ziilike]

The more you dig it the more you'll understand my point But there is not a chicken egg paradox, only the original explanation, bottom, and later explanations.

What point?


More finds about põhi/pohja as a bottom:

One Swedish origin dictionary put's all these similar words in Finnish, Komi, Lap, Syria, Ostjak, German, Swedish etc for põhi/pohja in one row. It's like makeing all these words etymologically related.

Pohja botten, Lap. vuodo, Vot. pydes, petsis, Syr. pydäs, Ung. padlas, pallas, pad, Ost. v Irt, pete, pede, German. boden, Sv. botten
http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... term=Louna


Here's some previous search from dictionaries:

i looked up some dictionaries and found something from north-sami language that looks like intermediate between swedish 'botten' and fi 'pohja'.
Finnish pohja appears to be in north-sami bodni or vuođđu

bodni:
http://sanit.oahpa.no/detail/sme/fin/bo ... match=true

vuođđu:
http://sanit.oahpa.no/detail/sme/fin/vu ... match=true

In case of vuođđu it may be that "b" has changed into "v". I don't know how the letter "đ" sounds, but i guess it's smth like "th" in english 'the'. There should not be a long way from "đ" into "š". Considering this, the sami words "boaššu" and "vuođđu" looks like a same thing/ etymologically related.

But confusing is this that lets say if põhi/pohja really came somehow from germanic languages, then there are at the same time these words from permic and mordvinic languages that also looks like estonian/finnish põhi/pohja:

est/ fi - põhi/pohja (bottom):

udmurt - пыдэс (roughly põdes)
komi - пыдӧс (põdös) (ю пыдӧс (ju põdös) - jõe põhi/fi joki pohja; му пыдӧс (mu põdös) - maa põhi/fi maa pohja)
mari - пындаш (põndaš)
erzya - потмакс, почва (potmaks, potšva)
moksha - потмакс

i don't know what to think of this or what it means (if anything at all) ...

I think what it seems to be meaning is that Estonian, Finnish and Swedish word has a same origin, but over time it has mutated and changed for sweds botten and for est/ fi põhi/pohja.
In the Bothnian bay area where the nowadays Swedish and Finnish people meet, also these different word forms (with same origin) meet, and people think that is it a swedish origin word or a finnish origin word... But looks like it's neither one.

[Sigfrid]

Ziilike, you probably know that Swedish settlements in Västerbotten and Norrboten are only 500-700 years old. There was no Swedish people before.

[Ziilike]

Ziilike, you probably know that Swedish settlements in Västerbotten and Norrboten are only 500-700 years old. There was no Swedish people before.

Wikipedia sais that the Swedish language is a descendant of Old Norse, the common language of the Germanic peoples living in Scandinavia during the Viking Era (period A.D. from late 8th century to mid 11th century).

You can't say for sure that no Old Norse people sailed into bottom of Bothnian bay before 8th century. I am sure some wondered there and know about this Västerbotten and Norrbotten lands, whatever they called it then.

But i don't see how it even matters here.
What i wanted to say is that it looks like Estonian, Finnish and Swedish word for bottom has a same origin that dates back into proto-finno-ugric and proto-germanic times, or smth like that.

[jussipussi]

Jussipussi why do you forget ancient Swedes in Pohjanperä?

https://www.finna.fi/Record/arto.515812?lng=en-gb

Kemi's Sihtuna (Sigtuna) or Liedakkala, both names have ancient Germanic etymology. We can add Swedes and likely also Germans to the list. But then we can ask which one of these explanations is true, which one hopefully thinking.

No I have not been forgot them. Hut explanation don't need them. Word (pohja) should be over 2000 years old. Germanic etymology is still bossible. Then we have to supose that word have been loaned somewhere east from Finland. Which also is possible.

[Sigfrid]

Ziilike, you probably know that Swedish settlements in Västerbotten and Norrboten are only 500-700 years old. There was no Swedish people before.

Wikipedia sais that the Swedish language is a descendant of Old Norse, the common language of the Germanic peoples living in Scandinavia during the Viking Era (period A.D. from late 8th century to mid 11th century).

You can't say for sure that no Old Norse people sailed into bottom of Bothnian bay before 8th century. I am sure some wondered there and know about this Västerbotten and Norrbotten lands, whatever they called it then.

But i don't see how it even matters here.
What i wanted to say is that it looks like Estonian, Finnish and Swedish word for bottom has a same origin that dates back into proto-finno-ugric and proto-germanic times, or smth like that.

According Swedish historical sources the northern migration of northernmost Swedish people, hälsingarnas, started from the beginning of the 14th century. It is general information however. It matters because those people, who ever they were, living there before Swedes, have partly common ancestry with people on the other side of the bay, including myself. Those people were probably Kvens, but for sure one group of southern Saamis. So it would be a good idea to study common language history, not only inside Finland and between Estonians and Finns, but also around the Bothnian Bay, because they have common roots. It is also known that people in Norrbotten and Västerbotten are closest genetic relatives for Western Finns, both groups showing similar genetic admixture. Our common root can be in Baltic-Finnic ancestry, but it is not the big view.

edit Relating to the hälsingarna migration to the north we hear still echoes, although younger people have lost it. "gå till Hälsinge", go to Hälsinge, is same as say "go to hell". Original dwellers in Västerbotten and Norrbotten did't like them, Swedes

[Sigfrid]

Jussipussi why do you forget ancient Swedes in Pohjanperä?

https://www.finna.fi/Record/arto.515812?lng=en-gb

Kemi's Sihtuna (Sigtuna) or Liedakkala, both names have ancient Germanic etymology. We can add Swedes and likely also Germans to the list. But then we can ask which one of these explanations is true, which one hopefully thinking.

No I have not been forgot them. Hut explanation don't need them. Word (pohja) should be over 2000 years old. Germanic etymology is still bossible. Then we have to supose that word have been loaned somewhere east from Finland. Which also is possible.

Neither you need to explain who settled Torniojokilaakso to explain "pohja". I know that you are upset because I don't agree the timing of the earliest Finnish migration to Torniojokilaakso.

[tenku]

In Eurasian mythology it is a common idea that North is located at the bottom, which is the Hell or Underworld. It links back to the the three-fold Word tree model

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_tree

[Sigfrid]

In Eurasian mythology it is a common idea that North is located at the bottom, which is the Hell or Underworld. It links back to the the three-fold Word tree model

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_tree

In Kaleva the place Pohja is known evil. Pohja people kill Kaleva heroes sinking them into a bog. We have an interesting narration about how Väinölä heroes sailed to a place, for us unknown place, to steal Sampo, a miracle machine. They succeeded to get it, but on the way back Louhi, the queen of Pohja (later Pohjola) attacked and Sampo was lost. Folklorists have suggested that Pohja (Pohjola) was in fact Gotland. They located Väinölä to Southwestern Finland, or even to West Estonia.

Back to the voyages of Lönnrot in Viena Karelia. For me it is obvious that we have many parallel stories and also the plece where Pohja, the enemy, evil place, existed differs. Pohja is considered as the underworld and parallelized with people who have evil powers. Nothing new in politics, the evil axis is still used to figure enemy. Pohja's queen, Louhi, lived in the land of evil people and "Pohja" was understood as the underworld without exact compass point.

https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohjolan_em%C3%A4nt%C3%A4

Gotland, or Vuojola - Vuojomaa, is only one explanation. For Viena Karelians the Pohja was obviously Pohjanmaa (Kainuunmaa, Kvenland). Gotland was connected to Pohja after its Estonian name Ojamaa, having same Baltic-Finnic etymology with old Finnish Vuojola.

Pohjola Ruotsissa tai Gotlannissa
On tehty joitakin yrityksiä sijoittaa Pohjola Suomen aluetta kauemmas ja etelämmäs, esimerkiksi Manner-Ruotsiin tai Gotlantiin. Näillä teorioilla ei enää ole laajaa kannatusta. Gotlannin vanhaksi nimeksi oletettu Vuojola esiintyy toisinaan kalevalaisessa runoudessa, ja Pohjolan emäntä mainitaan kerran vankkanenäiseksi Vuojolaiseksi. Vuojolainen on kuitenkin tarkoittanut myös muun muassa lappalaista.

https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomalais ... _maantiede

After all, all explanations to identify Kalevala's Pohjola have followed trends depending on who have given explanations and all explanations have been contradictionary with Kalevala texts.