botten-pohja?

[Sigfrid]

"Huima" is one of those weird words. Somewhere in the east is means mad, loony etc, but in many western places it is unknown, the closest phrasing is "huimata", meaning dizzy. In Estonia according to the online dictionary:

- huima - metsik
- huimata - pead pööritama panna

i don't know what dictionary u use but finnish huima means in estonian clearly uim : uima : uima 'joobumus,  joovastus; joove' (http://eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=uim&F=M&C06=et

I can guess what "joobumus" means. In Finnish "juopumus", "humala", "humalatila". One may be dizzy then.

[jussipussi]

Alltough there is nothing wrong in etymology that compass points in Finnish and Sami are from name of hut sides at least pohjoinen and nuortti, nuorta.

nuortti, nuorta are loans from germanic languages (etymologically meaning 'left'). Sami north is davvi , with a meaning syvä - that is by meaning somewhat as same as 'pohja' (bottom).
And now tell that there's nothing wrong in the etymology that compass points in Finnish and Sami are from name of hut sides

Yes, as I wrote before nuortti is loan from german. It is difficult to me explain exactly what I mean with my english. But I try.

As you wrote, boassu, posio, means backside of the hut and/or opposite of a door. Maybe that was when Sami people were in southern Finland. Then it was almost same as Finnish pohjoinen. Lingvists can tell if thats possible. When Sami peoples moved to the north, they have to make door of a hut against the wind: to the west or south west. At this time they also changed points of compass. Sometimes they also borroved nuortti from german. When, I don't know. But in my opinion its not important in this case. My point is that etymology is right, and what i wrote explains why Sami names of compass points changed.

[aikalainen]

But does it really means that the samis and finnic peoples have named their north direction after one and the same thing in their environment/life they encountered? Only they used a different word for it? If that's so then the sami hut explanation can't be right and it looks like põhi (pohjoinen) is more related to the sea..

It is still possible, that the original meaning of north in the old proto sami has been derived from the end/bottom of home ('kota') or the from the bottom of the Sun's orbit. Later people have forgotten the original connection, and assosiated it with the coastline. When sami people spread into the northern Fennoscandia, they used that word according to the closest coastline.

There are maybe 600 place names ending "pohja" and 800 ending "perä". I promise to eat my hat if someone succeeds in proving that the ending "pohja" here on this map means north.

In estonian there are no different forms for põhi meaning bottom or põhi meaning north. In estonian põhi means two things at once, there are not something like in finnish that pohjoinen means north and pohja means bottom. So, in estonian the meaning of põhi depends on context.

Actually there is no significant difference in estonian and finnish, while in finnish 'pohjoinen' is obviously just a derivation of the word 'pohja'. In the same way as 'etelä' (south) and 'eteläinen' (southern).

[aikalainen]

i don't know what dictionary u use but finnish huima means in estonian clearly uim : uima : uima 'joobumus,  joovastus; joove' (http://eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=uim&F=M&C06=et

I can guess what "joobumus" means. In Finnish "juopumus", "humala", "humalatila". One may be dizzy then.

Maybe finnish 'huma-la' has been derived from 'huima-la' (dizzy-).

[Sigfrid]

i don't know what dictionary u use but finnish huima means in estonian clearly uim : uima : uima 'joobumus,  joovastus; joove' (http://eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=uim&F=M&C06=et

I can guess what "joobumus" means. In Finnish "juopumus", "humala", "humalatila". One may be dizzy then.

Maybe finnish 'huma-la' has been derived from 'huima-la' (dizzy-).

Could be, but I guess too much (or just right) beer flavoured by hop.

[Ziilike]

But does it really means that the samis and finnic peoples have named their north direction after one and the same thing in their environment/life they encountered? Only they used a different word for it? If that's so then the sami hut explanation can't be right and it looks like põhi (pohjoinen) is more related to the sea..

It is still possible, that the original meaning of north in the old proto sami has been derived from the end/bottom of home ('kota') or the from the bottom of the Sun's orbit. Later people have forgotten the original connection, and assosiated it with the coastline. When sami people spread into the northern Fennoscandia, they used that word according to the closest coastline.

I meant more like: are the sami word (davvi) and fi pohja, est põhi related at all, meaning that did these words marked the same thing in ancient peoples life environment at all. Also it seems it's not very suitable to use a word for inner back part of 'kota' that means a syvä. It could be somehow that the inner back part of 'kota' is like a syvä-part of 'kota', but it seems like it can't be the prevalent way to address this part of 'kota'. Syvä is like more related to water, like syvä meri or something. Lönnrot proposed this idea that pohjoinen comes from that it's a directon where the Sun is seemingly going like into the bottom of a sea (or land). Davvi as syvä seems to suit with this explanation. Althought i think it's not a righ explanation..
However, if (davvi), fi pohja, est põhi are related and were used for the same thing in peoples life environment, i think it's a significant relation that may show something further. Aikalainen seems to take it as an obvious relation and already have an idea/explanation how it all works out (but thanks anyway). I just try to analyse more deeply.

I tried to find out that who proposed at first this idea that pohjoinen came from sami words boaššu, posio.
I didn't had much success in finding the original source, could anybody help? I tried google search for boaššu posio pohja but didn't get the original author for this proposition, best i found was somekind of "Saamelaiskulttuurin ecyklopedia" that had an articles opening the explanations a little (Boaššu, Posio: http://senc.hum.helsinki.fi/wiki/Boa%C5 ... A1u,_Posio ; boaššu: http://senc.hum.helsinki.fi/wiki/Boa%C5%A1%C5%A1u).
But this can't be the original source...

[Ziilike]

Also when i looked the distripution maps Sigfrid posted, one thing one can see is that in places names around Vaasa the -perä and -pohja are rather infrequent or even absent. These looks to infrequent also in north of Finland. So why is that? For exampel in the population around Vaasa there should be more swedish speakers, so i thought maybe there is some other word used in places names that means pohja. Maybe pojo (or posio in north Finland)?

Sigfrid, what service did you use to compose these maps? i would like to play aruond with it a little.. Or could u post some maps with words -pojo and -posio? or maybe also with botten, botn, bottnen, boaššu ..

[Ziilike]

Also when i looked the distripution maps Sigfrid posted, one thing one can see is that in places names around Vaasa the -perä and -pohja are rather infrequent or even absent. These looks to infrequent also in north of Finland. So why is that? For exampel in the population around Vaasa there should be more swedish speakers, so i thought maybe there is some other word used in places names that means pohja. Maybe pojo (or posio in north Finland)?

Sigfrid, what service did you use to compose these maps? i would like to play aruond with it a little.. Or could u post some maps with words -pojo and -posio? or maybe also with botten, botn, bottnen, boaššu ..

ok i got it: Maanmittaus laituos

[jussipussi]

But does it really means that the samis and finnic peoples have named their north direction after one and the same thing in their environment/life they encountered? Only they used a different word for it? If that's so then the sami hut explanation can't be right and it looks like põhi (pohjoinen) is more related to the sea..

It is still possible, that the original meaning of north in the old proto sami has been derived from the end/bottom of home ('kota') or the from the bottom of the Sun's orbit. Later people have forgotten the original connection, and assosiated it with the coastline. When sami people spread into the northern Fennoscandia, they used that word according to the closest coastline.

I meant more like: are the sami word (davvi) and fi pohja, est põhi related at all, meaning that did these words marked the same thing in ancient peoples life environment at all. Also it seems it's not very suitable to use a word for inner back part of 'kota' that means a syvä. It could be somehow that the inner back part of 'kota' is like a syvä-part of 'kota', but it seems like it can't be the prevalent way to address this part of 'kota'. Syvä is like more related to water, like syvä meri or something. Lönnrot proposed this idea that pohjoinen comes from that it's a directon where the Sun is seemingly going like into the bottom of a sea (or land). Davvi as syvä seems to suit with this explanation. Althought i think it's not a righ explanation..
However, if (davvi), fi pohja, est põhi are related and were used for the same thing in peoples life environment, i think it's a significant relation that may show something further. Aikalainen seems to take it as an obvious relation and already have an idea/explanation how it all works out (but thanks anyway). I just try to analyse more deeply.

I tried to find out that who proposed at first this idea that pohjoinen came from sami words boaššu, posio.
I didn't had much success in finding the original source, could anybody help? I tried google search for boaššu posio pohja but didn't get the original author for this proposition, best i found was somekind of "Saamelaiskulttuurin ecyklopedia" that had an articles opening the explanations a little (Boaššu, Posio: http://senc.hum.helsinki.fi/wiki/Boa%C5 ... A1u,_Posio ; boaššu: http://senc.hum.helsinki.fi/wiki/Boa%C5%A1%C5%A1u).
But this can't be the original source...

I think that davvi is not from kota. Boassu, posio is. Perä also is very undestandable word for backpart of kota. Davvi has nothing to do whith perä or pohja.

If boassu (posio is Finnish version) means pohjoinen, north it is not so on North Sami language today. Maybe it is in that meaning in other Sami language or maybe it is old meaning.

It is also possible that, perä, boassu och pohja have nothing to do with eachother in etymologycal contexes. Perä and pohja probaly have, they are somekinds of synonyms.

[jussipussi]

According to Algu all those words are connected to each other. I mean perä, pohja, boassu, posio.

Davvi means also west. It's meaning syvä, deep is on old Finnish (kantakieli).

[jussipussi]

More botten theory:

https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohjannaula

Unfortunately link is Finnish. Someone maybe can translate it.

This is same link what ziilike linked. Nothing new. Sorry about that. First I could not open it and noticed that it is same just a moment ago.

[Sigfrid]

Also when i looked the distripution maps Sigfrid posted, one thing one can see is that in places names around Vaasa the -perä and -pohja are rather infrequent or even absent. These looks to infrequent also in north of Finland. So why is that? For exampel in the population around Vaasa there should be more swedish speakers, so i thought maybe there is some other word used in places names that means pohja. Maybe pojo (or posio in north Finland)?

Sigfrid, what service did you use to compose these maps? i would like to play aruond with it a little.. Or could u post some maps with words -pojo and -posio? or maybe also with botten, botn, bottnen, boaššu ..

http://kansalaisen.karttapaikka.fi/kart ... ra&lang=fi

Those clusters exist because the area of present Finland was 1000 years ago populated only in south and southwest. People started to move to east and north, from Karelia to west and north, and brought own place names where ever they moved. People outside Finland usually don't understand that Finland was mostly uninhabited.

Making these place name clusters can be misleading too, the work should be done following statistical methods, a lot of maps are cherry picked.,

[jussipussi]

Those clusters exist because the area of present Finland was 1000 years ago populated only in south and southwest.

And also bottom of Golf of bottnia was populated by finns.

[Ziilike]

More botten theory:

https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohjannaula

Unfortunately link is Finnish. Someone maybe can translate it.

i have trouble with sentence: "Patanaula" on myös ollut oikea esine, jolla saamelaiset ovat joskus paikanneet metallisia, ja siten arvokkaita patojaan. The rest i can understand.

Nimitys batte navlle, "patanaula" consist a word est ''pada'' (fi pata) or ''pott''. I haven't found enywhere that it's etymologically related to swedish botten, bottnen or old norse botn. Though by sound of a word it's similar and i don't see why it should not be related.. But it seems that this kind of word was already in finno-ugric languages when they started to diverge from their ancient home (pada2: http://www.eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=pada), meaning that this word existed in finno-ugric languages long before contact with swedish and old norse peoples in Fennoscandia...

Another sami name Boahenavlle (also Boahjenásti och Boahjenávli) is probably just a version of fi "Pohjannaula", est "Põhjanael". Here is probably some norse-swedish-finnish-sami-estonian mythology to work through to say something about how the Boahenavlle came to be Boahenavlle, where it happaned firstly.. and more

To use of this star for determing direction (north) should be somewhat useless or hard if u are located in far north (lets say in Lapland), because North Star will be almost on top of the sky, not near the horizon.

I wrote into "Osoite" box pohja* and got a bit more evenly distriputed map than Sigfrid: http://kansalaisen.karttapaikka.fi/imag ... 3627107521 (edit: link not working)
But i a agree that one can't make very fundamental conclusions based on this map-service :) But something it shows though..

[Ziilike]

Nimitys batte navlle, "patanaula" consist a word est ''pada'' (fi pata) or ''pott''. I haven't found enywhere that it's etymologically related to swedish botten, bottnen or old norse botn.

Adding that i haven't also found enywhere that ''pada'' (fi pata) or ''pott'' should be etymologically related to est põhja, fi pohja

[jussipussi]

Nimitys batte navlle, "patanaula" consist a word est ''pada'' (fi pata) or ''pott''. I haven't found enywhere that it's etymologically related to swedish botten, bottnen or old norse botn.

Adding that i haven't also found enywhere that ''pada'' (fi pata) or ''pott'' should be etymologically related to est põhja, fi pohja

I think idea is a pata's shape. Before pata's bottom was round. It was usefull over a fire. If you watch up to the sky you can imagine that you are under a huge pata which is upsidedown and then you are watching to pata's bottom.

[jussipussi]

i have trouble with sentence: "Patanaula" on myös ollut oikea esine, jolla saamelaiset ovat joskus paikanneet metallisia, ja siten arvokkaita patojaan. The rest i can understand.

Patanaula is a real object which is used for repairing expensive metallic pots, pata by Lapps.

To use of this star for determing direction (north) should be somewhat useless or hard if u are located in far north (lets say in Lapland), because North Star will be almost on top of the sky, not near the horizon.

No, it is not difficult. It is very usefull. I used it often in army when it was not possible to use light. And if it was possible, you don't loosed your ability to see at dark. From polarcirkeln to Ivalo - Utsjoki polarstar was useful.

[Sigfrid]

Those clusters exist because the area of present Finland was 1000 years ago populated only in south and southwest.

And also bottom of Golf of bottnia was populated by finns.

We have no evidences about ethnic Finns in that area 1000 years ago. If one professor says that a few old phrasings prove it, I am nor yet convinced. 700-800 years ago yes, 1000 years ago no. We have seen also such theories that the Finns have lived here since the Ice Age. Often those extreme theories come from emeritus professors.

[aikalainen]

I wrote into "Osoite" box pohja* and got a bit more evenly distriputed map than Sigfrid: http://kansalaisen.karttapaikka.fi/imag ... 3627107521 (edit: link not working)

The choice "osoitteella" (by address) searches only for postal addresses, as street names. Use the choice "paikannimellä" (by name of place), which searches for all names on the map.

Patanaula is a real object which is used for repairing expensive metallic pots, pata by Lapps.

I just wonder, how could a pot be repaired by using a spike.

[jussipussi]

I wrote into "Osoite" box pohja* and got a bit more evenly distriputed map than Sigfrid: http://kansalaisen.karttapaikka.fi/imag ... 3627107521 (edit: link not working)

The choice "osoitteella" (by address) searches only for postal addresses, as street names. Use the choice "paikannimellä" (by name of place), which searches for all names on the map.

Patanaula is a real object which is used for repairing expensive metallic pots, pata by Lapps.

I just wonder, how could a pot be repaired by using a spike.

Heh, old smiths was clever. Wejoja knows, maybe?