botten-pohja?

[Ziilike]

It's just clear that the word meaning 'bottom' (est põhi) was first, and the direction's name (est also põhi) came after that (let's say after kota's bottom, or after sky dome's bottom or after whatever bottom)...

Of course, but it is still interesting when the later association was conceived, by whom and where, and why (was it "random" or a natural development). Or can somebody go to the bottom of the "bottom" meaning too?

I agree that some later associations in finnish language are also part of the story. I didn't know before that in finnish language there has developed two different pohja-words of which one is used for north only and the other for 'bottom' (if i'm not mistakeing)

Today a new theory about põhi/pohjoinen(north) started to form in my mind:
At least in estonian, 'põhi' has also a meaning 'basic, primal, major' or smth like that. In finnish it's maybe 'perustiedot'. Illustrating examples:
põhi asi - pääasia - 'the main thing'.
põhiline suund (also põhi suund) - pääsuunta - the main direction.

So i have a new theory to disprove that maybe a direction name põhi/pohjoinen came from that it was somehow the most important direction - a direction that was used to put in place all other directions.
When people try to set them location by compass the first thing that is usually done with compass is to find the North. So, the North is like the main direction, põhiline suund or pääsuunta.
have to think about it...

[Sigfrid]

It's just clear that the word meaning 'bottom' (est põhi) was first, and the direction's name (est also põhi) came after that (let's say after kota's bottom, or after sky dome's bottom or after whatever bottom)...

Of course, but it is still interesting when the later association was conceived, by whom and where, and why (was it "random" or a natural development). Or can somebody go to the bottom of the "bottom" meaning too?

I agree that some later associations in finnish language are also part of the story. I didn't know before that in finnish language there has developed two different pohja-words of which one is used for north only and the other for 'bottom' (if i'm not mistakeing)

Today a new theory about põhi/pohjoinen(north) started to form in my mind:
At least in estonian, 'põhi' has also a meaning 'basic, primal, major' or smth like that. In finnish it's maybe 'perustiedot'. Illustrating examples:
põhi asi - pääasia - 'the main thing'.
põhiline suund (also põhi suund) - pääsuunta - the main direction.

So i have a new theory to disprove that maybe a direction name põhi/pohjoinen came from that it was somehow the most important direction - a direction that was used to put in place all other directions.
When people try to set them location by compass the first thing that is usually done with compass is to find the North. So, the North is like the main direction, põhiline suund or pääsuunta.
have to think about it...

"Pohjoinen" was probably invented to make the difference with "pohja". My opinion is that those inventors were not perfect Finnish speakers, because language development has to be logical. Maybe they heard someone saying "pohjoinen suunta". They probably took words randomly, mostly from Central and East Finland, because those area were considered to be "pure" instead of west, which was corrupted and more distant from "original Chudes". Genetically this is not true. We have also a lot words common, but have different nuances. Typical examples figure humans: ukko, äijä, akka, muija. Origins of those words are clear, if you are aware of Baltic-Finnish mythology.

Again, an example about the language development, natural or unnatural, we can say "pohjimmiltaan", meaning basically, fundamentally, but the basic form "pohja" has disappeared in this context. Instead of saying "pohja" we say "perusta", which is almost a synonym of ground of house, groundwork. Of cause we can say"perusteiltaan" which is almost same as "pohjimmiltaan".

[Ziilike]

I tried to find out that who proposed at first this idea that pohjoinen came from sami words boaššu, posio.
I didn't had much success in finding the original source, could anybody help? I tried google search for boaššu posio pohja but didn't get the original author for this proposition, best i found was somekind of "Saamelaiskulttuurin ecyklopedia" that had an articles opening the explanations a little (Boaššu, Posio: http://senc.hum.helsinki.fi/wiki/Boa%C5 ... A1u,_Posio ; boaššu: http://senc.hum.helsinki.fi/wiki/Boa%C5%A1%C5%A1u).
But this can't be the original source...

Does anybody know who was this author proposing this sami hut boaššu/posio theory? I would like to find original source

[aikalainen]

"Pohjoinen" was probably invented to make the difference with "pohja".

That sounds a good explanation. First there were derivations 'etelä-eteläinen', 'länsi-läntinen', 'pohja-pohjoinen' etc., most of them are used still today. When talking about north, people started to use only the derivation 'pohjoinen', maybe to avoid confusion with bottom, as you wrote.

Also 'koillinen' (north-west) has been changed from a derivation into a compass direction. The word koi means nowadays only the light of a rising Sun ('aamun koi').

My opinion is that those inventors were not perfect Finnish speakers, because language development has to be logical.

Foreigners are not needed. I just gave you a list of non-logical derivations. I'll repeat: lapsi-lapsonen, kuppi-kupponen, käki-käkönen, valkea-valkoinen, puhdas-puhtoinen, lappi-lappalainen/lappilainen (eri merkitys!), aita-aitovieri, etc. .... pohja-pohjoinen fits here well.

[Ziilike]

Trying to find explanations further...

i could say that põhi/pohja as a ''bottom'' of whatever vessel or thing is a darker place. And this concept may have been transcripted to direction 'north', as it is a night side. One can find that in many finno-ugric languages the name for the direction 'north' is basically meaning night side.

For examp:
hungarian 'észak'- ’éj’ ’öö’ ja szak ’osa’; ’éj’ ’night’ ja szak ’part’
udmurt: 'ujpal' meaning in est ’ööpool’, in eng 'night side', in fi i dont know..
komi: 'voj' - 'night, north', similar is est 'öö', fi 'yö', komi language is strongly influenced by russian..unfortunately or ineluctably..
mari: йӱдвел - north, same as est 'ööpool', in eng literally 'night side'
vepsa: 'öbok' - north, again same as est 'ööpool', in eng literally 'night side'

even in polish 'północ' - fi 'puoli yö' - eng 'north'
and in some russian older or in whateverdialect - полночь - eng 'north'

What i want to say with that is that the North seems to be imagined by other finno-ugric peopels prevalently as a 'night side', or as a dark side. Maybe the direction's name põhi/pohjoinen is really just a transcription of an idea that a ''bottom'' of whatever thing is a darker place, like a night when the sun is gone to the north.

[Ziilike]

i must say that i'm really not a believer of that sami hut theory, cause it seems not intuitive enough. Couple of questions arises there.. Samis didn't invented it.. it's not that you can call horizontally back part of something 'põhi', põhi is more like vertically down.
I think samis may have loaned the word from finnic or it is inherited from finno-ugric, or from somewhere else.

For that to find i think it's maybe helpful to think of words that may resemble põhi/pohja and has a somewhat similar meaning. Like these wordforms with slightly different meaning ('ground', 'basic', 'standpoint' and more), there might be a hint.

[Ziilike]

It does not have to be so complicated. The explanation may be simpler as one can think...

[Ziilike]

For that to find i think it's maybe helpful to think of words that may resemble põhi/pohja and has a somewhat similar meaning. Like these wordforms with slightly different meaning ('ground', 'basic', 'standpoint' and more), there might be a hint.

something that may resemble 'põhi', in a way...:
est põrkama, fi pomppia
maybe also est panema, fi panna
...

these word assume that there is something against what or on what to pomppia, panna, somekind of firm thing

[aikalainen]

One can find that in many finno-ugric languages the name for the direction 'north' is basically meaning night side.

That is an interesting finding.

Maybe the direction's name põhi/pohjoinen is really just a transcription of an idea that a ''bottom'' of whatever thing is a darker place, like a night when the sun is gone to the north.

Possible, but there is a big jump from bottom to night, which reduces the value of the theory.

i must say that i'm really not a believer of that sami hut theory, cause it seems not intuitive enough. Couple of questions arises there.. Samis didn't invented it.

A sami hut, 'kota' has been used by all finno-ugric people, not only sami people. Even the finnish word 'koti' (home) is connected to word 'kota' (sami hut).

it's not that you can call horizontally back part of something 'põhi', põhi is more like vertically down.

In finnish that word is used also horizontally. Nowadays mostly in form 'pohjukka'. We can also see 'pohja' at end of many long bays. You can check this at 'Karttapaikka' by searching for *pohja.

[Sigfrid]

i must say that i'm really not a believer of that sami hut theory, cause it seems not intuitive enough. Couple of questions arises there.. Samis didn't invented it.. it's not that you can call horizontally back part of something 'põhi', põhi is more like vertically down.
I think samis may have loaned the word from finnic or it is inherited from finno-ugric, or from somewhere else.

For that to find i think it's maybe helpful to think of words that may resemble põhi/pohja and has a somewhat similar meaning. Like these wordforms with slightly different meaning ('ground', 'basic', 'standpoint' and more), there might be a hint.

In Central Finland the place name (postfix) "pohja" is an exact substitute for western "perä". Maybe Finns married there Saami women and the meaning was forwarded from Saami people.

[Ziilike]

Maybe the direction's name põhi/pohjoinen is really just a transcription of an idea that a ''bottom'' of whatever thing is a darker place, like a night when the sun is gone to the north.

Possible, but there is a big jump from bottom to night, which reduces the value of the theory.

It depends how to look on it. One can say that bottom of something and night aren't related anyway at all, these are different things - and that's right.
But if u think how would you describe bottom, let's say a bottom of a well or a pit, u can say that there's dark there. And at night it's also dark - so like this u can say that these are connected.

I'm just thinking that why should estonian or finnish name for 'north' have to be different from other finno-ugric. Maybe there's a same conception (night side, dark side) underlying it, but approach to explaining that is just a bit from another angle. So that we use a different word - when for examp udmurts say 'ujpal', maris say йӱдвел and so on.. all meaning 'night side', then we say 'põhja pool'/'pohjoinen puoli' and also mean by that a 'dark side' or a night side.

[Rekonpoika]

Maris and Udmurts have been separated from Finnic speakers for thousands of years, and have also spent a lengthy portion of that time under Turkic influence. Their "north" being different is by no means unique, we find similar instances of a word for a thing being disconnected from a common root in many Indo-European branches, never mind Afroasiatic.

[Ziilike]

Maris and Udmurts have been separated from Finnic speakers for thousands of years, and have also spent a lengthy portion of that time under Turkic influence. Their "north" being different is by no means unique, we find similar instances of a word for a thing being disconnected from a common root in many Indo-European branches, never mind Afroasiatic.

Nobody said that there's something unique here

[Rekonpoika]

Maris and Udmurts have been separated from Finnic speakers for thousands of years, and have also spent a lengthy portion of that time under Turkic influence. Their "north" being different is by no means unique, we find similar instances of a word for a thing being disconnected from a common root in many Indo-European branches, never mind Afroasiatic.

Nobody said that there's something unique here

My point is that a word for a thing within the same language family doesn't have to derive from a common root word, or even a common concept. Consider Germanic and Balto-Slavic words for "north" etc.

[Sigfrid]

Maris and Udmurts have been separated from Finnic speakers for thousands of years, and have also spent a lengthy portion of that time under Turkic influence. Their "north" being different is by no means unique, we find similar instances of a word for a thing being disconnected from a common root in many Indo-European branches, never mind Afroasiatic.

Nobody said that there's something unique here

My point is that a word for a thing within the same language family doesn't have to derive from a common root word, or even a common concept. Consider Germanic and Balto-Slavic words for "north" etc.

I don't want to twist things more, but in my opinion linguists sometimes "menevät merta edemmäs kalaan". THe target they have steers them.

[Ziilike]

My point is that a word for a thing within the same language family doesn't have to derive from a common root word, or even a common concept. Consider Germanic and Balto-Slavic words for "north" etc.

Isn't it just too obvious to even mention? ..
Germans have used for examp Mitternacht for 'north'. North as a dark or night side is quite common consept. Even in estonian there are 'päiwata pohl' - a side without Sun(or day), fi 'päivätön pohjoinen' - north (or bottom?!) without Sun(or day)

[Sigfrid]

What do you think about the Kalevala rhyme "louhi pohjolan emäntä pohjan akka harvahammas". Maybe this is not straight from Kalevala, but it equates "pohjoinen" and "pohja", as we have supposed. Good indeed, but here is a puzzle. Lönnrot collected Kalevala from Northern Viena, Vuonninen. Look at the map where you have to go if you go to north from Vuonninen, or from anywhere in Vienan-Karjala. Linguists can try to twist things saying that Lönnrot visited also in Latvia, in more southern Karjala or other more southern places, but the truth is that Lönnrot fabled things and collected Kalevala mostly from northern Viena. If Pohja/Pohjoinen/Pohjanmaa are derived from the same root then Kalevala was in Southwestern Finland. Then, how Kalevala rhymes were sung in Vuonninen?

[Rekonpoika]

My point is that a word for a thing within the same language family doesn't have to derive from a common root word, or even a common concept. Consider Germanic and Balto-Slavic words for "north" etc.

Isn't it just too obvious to even mention? ..
Germans have used for examp Mitternacht for 'north'. North as a dark or night side is quite common consept. Even in estonian there are 'päiwata pohl' - a side without Sun(or day), fi 'päivätön pohjoinen' - north (or bottom?!) without Sun(or day)

I mentioned it because an idea of a common-concept origin for word "north" was brought up regarding Finnic, Permic and whatever branch Mari is on. This need not be the case since it often isn't in other language families.

[Ziilike]

i mention here that vepsa people also have this 'o' (for north) and 'a' (for bottom) forms. "Päiväine om pohjoižes keskön." - Sun is in the north at midnight. Vepsa north - 'pohjoine'. bottom is pohja.

I think fi 'pohjoinen' could be in estonian 'põhine'. But 'põhine' for 'north' is not used, i've seen this form only once in book from 1780.

[Rekonpoika]

Is there a difference in Võro or Seto to standard?