botten-pohja?

[Ziilike]

Is there a difference in Võro or Seto to standard?

i can understand some võro dialect speaker as bad as finnish. That's a whole different language to me. Same with seto. I don't know what are they talking... It's estonian alright, but i don't understand much. Important here is to note that the distinction between middle-estonian dialect and võro does not come sharply. This is like that what more south u go the less understandable the language gets. Untill it's like some language of mytical dwarfs who live under the roots of trees..
Seto has much influence from russian, something like võro (although i might be wrong) with lots of russian loans maybe. There is also a mulgi dialect..

[Ziilike]

but it's not so bad, we can understand each other here :)

[Rekonpoika]

I meant to ask if their words for "north" differ from standard Estonian.

[Ziilike]

mot much, võro/seto north is põhi, põhja, põh'a or põha

[Ziilike]

i found from estonian-udmurt dictionary that põhi/pohja is in udmurt пыдэс (smth like põdes) and i don't really believe any more that this word is of germanic origin, or comes from swedish botten.

[Ziilike]

There is also a one aspect about day-night cycle what may contribute to explaination that why the põhi/pohjoinen is called like it is. It's just that in the morning there is sunririse, the Sun rises up, and in the evening there is sunset - Sun goes down. That means that in the day-night cycle in the midday the Sun has like a highest position, and at the night the Sun has gone somewhere at the lowest part. Thinking like that, one can as well say that in the night the Sun is in the bottom.

[Ziilike]

What do you think about the Kalevala rhyme "louhi pohjolan emäntä pohjan akka harvahammas". Maybe this is not straight from Kalevala, but it equates "pohjoinen" and "pohja", as we have supposed. Good indeed, but here is a puzzle. Lönnrot collected Kalevala from Northern Viena, Vuonninen. Look at the map where you have to go if you go to north from Vuonninen, or from anywhere in Vienan-Karjala. Linguists can try to twist things saying that Lönnrot visited also in Latvia, in more southern Karjala or other more southern places, but the truth is that Lönnrot fabled things and collected Kalevala mostly from northern Viena. If Pohja/Pohjoinen/Pohjanmaa are derived from the same root then Kalevala was in Southwestern Finland. Then, how Kalevala rhymes were sung in Vuonninen?

This rhyme translates into estonian: "Louhi Põhjala emand. Põhja eit hõrehammas."
Word "Põhjala" can be taken apart here as follows: 'põhja-' is a genitive form of 'põhi', suffix '-la' expresses that it's an area of somesort, or some place or land of similar things, like for examp a prison is place for prisoners (est vangla, fi vankila).
So, not much explanation for the -o- from estonian language.

Lönnrot may have collected Kalevala story from one language area, but later when he put it together for publishing, he may have done some corrections...

[Ziilike]

i looked up some dictionaries and found something from north-sami language that looks like intermediate between swedish 'botten' and fi 'pohja'.
Finnish pohja appears to be in north-sami bodni or vuođđu

bodni:
http://sanit.oahpa.no/detail/sme/fin/bo ... match=true

vuođđu:
http://sanit.oahpa.no/detail/sme/fin/vu ... match=true

In case of vuođđu it may be that "b" has changed into "v". I don't know how the letter "đ" sounds, but i guess it's smth like "th" in english 'the'. There should not be a long way from "đ" into "š". Considering this, the sami words "boaššu" and "vuođđu" looks like a same thing/ etymologically related.

But confusing is this that lets say if põhi/pohja really came somehow from germanic languages, then there are at the same time these words from permic and mordvinic languages that also looks like estonian/finnish põhi/pohja:

est/ fi - põhi/pohja (bottom):

udmurt - пыдэс (roughly põdes)
komi - пыдӧс (põdös) (ю пыдӧс (ju põdös) - jõe põhi/fi joki pohja; му пыдӧс (mu põdös) - maa põhi/fi maa pohja)
mari - пындаш (põndaš)
erzya - потмакс, почва (potmaks, potšva)
moksha - потмакс

i don't know what to think of this or what it means (if anything at all) ...

[Sigfrid]

But if "Pohja" means Pohjanmaa, the western lowland in Finland, also Kalevala is consistent. "Pohjan akka" was the queen of Pohja and Pohja lies to the west from Viena. We know also that Karelians living in Viena fought against Ostrobothnians, probably also against Kvens. Again here is a puzzle, often studied by Finnish historians: was Ostrobothnia earlier called Kvenland (in Finnish often Kainuunmaa)? The reasoning flow goes like this: pohjalaiset was called kainulaiset, kainulaiset lived in Kainuunmaa. All this is well known among all Finnish historians, but perhaps not among forumites. A lot text can be found about this topic, for example Julku, a professor of Oulu University, wrote about it, and many others

http://www.antikvaari.fi/naytatuote.asp?id=1397536

The problem is that in Finland the discussion about our history is usually polarized and being such it confuses people who don't own much basic level knowledge.

[jussipussi]

The problem is that in Finland the discussion about our history is usually polarized and being such it confuses people who don't own much basic level knowledge.

And also there is problem in Forum because someone think that his knowledge is perfect and no updating is needed.

[Sigfrid]

The problem is that in Finland the discussion about our history is usually polarized and being such it confuses people who don't own much basic level knowledge.

And also there is problem in Forum because someone think that his knowledge is perfect and no updating is needed.

Off topic.

[jussipussi]

The problem is that in Finland the discussion about our history is usually polarized and being such it confuses people who don't own much basic level knowledge.

And also there is problem in Forum because someone think that his knowledge is perfect and no updating is needed.

Off topic.

How it could be? If forum have problem it is not off topic in any discussion in forum. Or is it?

It is different story if you don't see problem there.

[Sigfrid]

And also there is problem in Forum because someone think that his knowledge is perfect and no updating is needed.

Off topic.

How it could be? If forum have problem it is not off topic in any discussion in forum. Or is it?

It is different story if you don't see problem there.

Your quote was wrong then.

I wrote about us:

All this is well known among all Finnish historians, but perhaps not among forumites.

Am I right or wrong?

[jussipussi]

Your quote was wrong then.

I wrote about us:

All this is well known among all Finnish historians, but perhaps not among forumites.

Am I right or wrong?

You are wrong. My point was about problem, I chose that quote because you said there is problem in Finnish historians. I think you don't see there maybe is problem about your own knowledge. In Forum and generally.

But, ok. I understand that my english is bad and it is difficult to translate.

[Sigfrid]

Your quote was wrong then.

I wrote about us:

All this is well known among all Finnish historians, but perhaps not among forumites.

Am I right or wrong?

You are wrong. My point was about problem, I chose that quote because you said there is problem in Finnish historians. I think you don't see there maybe is problem about your own knowledge. In Forum and generally.

But, ok. I understand that my english is bad and it is difficult to translate.

I didn't write that Finnish historians are wrong, I even linked one, Kyösti Julku. I stated that the discussion about our history here on this forum is not balanced and neutral. The view that we get from historians is much more diverse.

[jussipussi]

I didn't write that Finnish historians are wrong, I even linked one, Kyösti Julku. I stated that the discussion about our history here on this forum is not balanced and neutral. The view that we get from historians is much more diverse.

You are right. My bad.

Problem is still the point. In discussion. And I mean you think that your knowledge is enough. Everything what is against your opinion is not science.

[jussipussi]

I was whatching icehockey when I answered to Sigfrid. Europeans won against sweds. Great.

[Sigfrid]

I was whatching icehockey when I answered to Sigfrid. Europeans won against sweds. Great.

United Europeans has been surprising.

[Ziilike]

Have u looked this Finnish National Library's digital collection (http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/)
I find that old newspapers and journals are good for searching about words - u can do some search by just putting a root of a word into searchfield and look what it gives. Like this u can find some alternative forms, also it provides a context. I've usally done this by grouping the search results from older firts to newer.

For examp i found this journal from year 1868. According to the article in it, the North in fi is Pohja, NO is Pohjan koilliskorva and so on. That means instead of pohjoinen there are used pohja.
http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... ansuuntain

How would you translate -korva in 'Pohjan koilliskorva'? is it something like ''beside, next to'' (est 'kõrval')?

There is somekind of hint that 'pohjoinen' may be abbreviation. Maybe 'Pohja-osien' came to be 'pohjoinen'... http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... ispuolessa

[aikalainen]

For examp i found this journal from year 1868. According to the article in it, the North in fi is Pohja, NO is Pohjan koilliskorva and so on. That means instead of pohjoinen there are used pohja.
http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... ansuuntain

How would you translate -korva in 'Pohjan koilliskorva'? is it something like ''beside, next to'' (est 'kõrval')?

Nowadays 'korva' means ear. The old meaning might have been as you suggested, close to something, just beside one's ear. Based on the context, 'Pohjan koilliskorva' means something like 'northeast side of north'.

There is somekind of hint that 'pohjoinen' may be abbreviation. Maybe 'Pohja-osien' came to be 'pohjoinen'... http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikaka ... ispuolessa

pohja-osien = pohjois-osien = of northern parts
Pohjan pitäjä = Pohja municipality